(urth) UotNS and how it screws with your head

Tue Jul 13 11:53:57 PDT 2010

He'd probably react well to Wolfe.

Thinking Christians tend to so react.

.

> That's certainly my feeling.
>
> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> Many protestants use their religion in ways not incompatible with
>> reality.
>>
>> Many is perhaps a strong word, but they do exist.
>>
>> That your father-in-law is one is not beyond the bounds of possibility.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>> My father-in-law is a Protestant, of course. (broad wink)
>>>
>>> I'd turn him on to Wolfe but I fear the result. He might stop reading
>>> altogether.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> The World is as it is.
>>>>
>>>> Religion - real religion - acknowledges this.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My father-in-law, who eschews SF because it lacks hope with a capital
>>>>> (C)H(RIST), would agree with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree. As a Catholic acquaintance once said to me, "Catholicism
>>>>> is
>>>>> not supposed to be easy." If you take it seriously, it acknowledges
>>>>> the
>>>>> most horrifying pain of existence and tries to justify it. I respect
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> BotNS has a perpetual subtext of violence and injustice. You could
>>>>> trace
>>>>> every chapter and scene simply by the violence done or attempted by
>>>>> one
>>>>> human being to/on another. There is a purpose to this subtext.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee Berman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think so...I think the black hole in the Sun exists as a
>>>>>>> white
>>>>>>> fountain
>>>>>>> in the lower universe (Abbadon?)   It would follow that the white
>>>>>>> fountain Severian
>>>>>>> creates exists as a black hole in Yesod or some higher plane.
>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>> may be an
>>>>>>> incredible number oflayers of universes...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice post John. My thinking has leaned in the same direction,
>>>>>> heavily
>>>>>> influenced
>>>>>> by the (surprisingly) hard SF, (shockingly) foresighted 1972 book,
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Gods Themselves,
>>>>>> by Asimov. I don't feel it is considered a very seminal work though
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> did win the Hugo
>>>>>> and Nebula.  Surely Wolfe read it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It paints a very similar picture of the universes leaking from
>>>>>> higher
>>>>>> energy to lower
>>>>>> which might clarify things in BotNS. As you say, Severian's (and
>>>>>> Apheta's?) creation
>>>>>> was a White Fountain in Briah. But it was a black hole they created
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Yesod
>>>>>> (no snarky comments please). Was Yesod (or maybe Sol) left with a
>>>>>> black
>>>>>> hole that they
>>>>>> will need to repair?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have heard the black hole in Urth's sun was created as a
>>>>>> punishment.
>>>>>> But could we
>>>>>> infer that it (also) was created when a nastier version of Severian
>>>>>> travelled to Briah
>>>>>> to get a white fountain to bring back and heal the black hole for a
>>>>>> nastier version of
>>>>>> Urth in Abbadon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Metaphorically (and maybe literally), I think Wolfe is making a
>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> grace...God, being the well that never goes dry, can give without
>>>>>>> taking... et cetera.
>>>>>>> These points would be lost, or their effectiveness reduced, if the
>>>>>>> white fountain and
>>>>>>> the black hole were one and the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wolfe is usually portrayed as a devout Catholic but, given his
>>>>>> writing,
>>>>>> I have serious
>>>>>> doubts whether he has the same view of grace and the "God Is Love"
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>> that most
>>>>>> Christians have or are supposed to have. He really seems to have a
>>>>>> dark
>>>>>> and pessimistic
>>>>>> side which comes out in pretty much all his work. Where, in his
>>>>>> work,
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> the shining,
>>>>>> uncompromised  redemption we must (as christians) eventually,
>>>>>> somehow
>>>>>> achieve? Is he
>>>>>> saving that for his last novel maybe?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a way I hope so. But I doubt Gene Wolfe's worldview is likely to
>>>>>> become more
>>>>>> positive as he nears death. Tzadkiel, who is so much more
>>>>>> spiritually
>>>>>> advanced than
>>>>>> Severian, is still infinitely far from the Increate. I suspect a
>>>>>> soul
>>>>>> will have to pass
>>>>>> through an eternity of incarnations before becoming one with God, in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Wolfean cosmos.
>>>>>> And that is dark, pessimistic and depressing.
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> inbox.
>>>>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100713-0, 07/13/2010
>>>>>> Tested on: 7/13/2010 1:12:07 PM
>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
>>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100713-0, 07/13/2010
>>>> Tested on: 7/13/2010 2:25:08 PM
>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 100713-0, 07/13/2010
>> Tested on: 7/13/2010 2:39:08 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>