(urth) Appearances of Inire
brunians at brunians.org
brunians at brunians.org
Thu Jul 1 06:40:38 PDT 2010
When you die, why are you going to die?
Death happens.
.
> Thanks.
>
> Obviously, the effect of Tzadkiel's actions is the coming of the New Sun
> and
> the drowning of Urth. Lots and lots of people die in this, maybe for a
> redemptive higher meaning and maybe not. Under 1), we can be quite
> confident that the slaughter was authorized by God, like the Flood or the
> apocalypse, and therefore moral, at least by the author's lights (the
> reader's mileage may vary.) Under 2), the massacring of Urth is no less
> than genocide. Under 3), it may be either--a clumsy attempt by incredibly
> powerful but fallible beings to enact what they understand to be the
> divine
> will.
>
> I think 3) maybe makes for the best story. But with 2), there's the
> possibility of something else going on behind the scenes--maybe over the
> course of the next seven books--redeeming the act of evil. That would be
> a
> pretty great story.
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:53 AM, David Stockhoff
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:
>
>> Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.
>>
>> Under #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel
>> just
>> as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly more
>> connected.
>>
>> One can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good
>> intentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to
>> the
>> deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more damage.
>>
>> John Watkins wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in
>>> Christian
>>> and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible separation
>>> between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have
>>> been
>>> possible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations
>>> of
>>> what this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it
>>> could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant
>>> communication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various
>>> errors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or
>>> commit
>>> acts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule
>>> on
>>> one occasion).
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff
>>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net<mailto:
>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and
>>> using the words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact."
>>> That would be more distinct.
>>>
>>> As I understand it.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is no meaningful difference between one and three.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Right.
>>>
>>> Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents
>>> himself not as
>>> the
>>> Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important
>>> question of the
>>> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in
>>> fact three
>>> options:
>>>
>>> 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less
>>> in direct
>>> contact
>>> with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be
>>> completely trusted and
>>> is
>>> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.
>>> 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.
>>> The
>>> pretentions
>>> of religion are a means of controlling the human race.
>>> 3) Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense
>>> but remains
>>> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in
>>> "The Cock and
>>> the
>>> Angel." His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do
>>> its will is
>>> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best
>>> he/she can, but
>>> like
>>> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and
>>> infinitely removed
>>> from
>>> the mind of the Increate.
>>>
>>> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff
>>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net
>>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a
>>> general theoretical
>>> observation.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Who usurping where?
>>>
>>> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?
>>> Tzadkiel?
>>>
>>> I don't think so.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So
>>> does the concept of a
>>> local archon pretending to be the Outsider.
>>> You can explain it any way
>>> you want, but that's the concept.
>>>
>>> Think Tolkien.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org
>>> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe for you.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The question, then, is whether such
>>> delegation occurred---or not.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org
>>> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't buy it.
>>>
>>> God delegates all the time.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Precisely.
>>>
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at
>>> 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson
>>> <jwilson at io.com
>>> <mailto:jwilson at io.com>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Wilson wrote
>>> (30-06-2010 16:04):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/30/2010
>>> 9:24 AM, James
>>> Wynn wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There's that thing
>>> about only God
>>> being creator.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How is that relevant
>>> here? Do you prefer
>>> that people use
>>> "assemble"
>>> instead of "create"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's relevant because a
>>> race that creates a
>>> (slave) race is
>>> usurping
>>> the privilege of the
>>> Creator -- is in fact
>>> acting in daemonic
>>> manner.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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