(urth) Appearances of Inire

Thu Jul 1 06:07:49 PDT 2010

I'm not talking about schools of thought.

I am talking about reality as I know it.

.

> Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian
> and Gnostic thought.  Obvious there must be *some *possible separation
> between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been
> possible.  It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of
> what this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it
> could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant
> communication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various
> errors of judgment.  I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit
> acts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on
> one occasion).
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:
>
>> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and using the
>> words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact." That would be
>> more
>> distinct.
>>
>> As I understand it.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>>  There is no meaningful difference between one and three.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Right.
>>>>
>>>> Although now I will say such a thing.  Tzadkiel presents himself not
>>>> as
>>>> the
>>>> Outsider but as His agent.  Arguably the most important question of
>>>> the
>>>> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying.  I think there are in fact three
>>>> options:
>>>>
>>>> 1)  Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct
>>>> contact
>>>> with the will of the deity.  Thus he/she is to be completely trusted
>>>> and
>>>> is
>>>> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.
>>>> 2)  Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.  The
>>>> pretentions
>>>> of religion are a means of controlling the human race.
>>>> 3)  Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense but remains
>>>> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in "The Cock
>>>> and
>>>> the
>>>> Angel."  His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is
>>>> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but
>>>> like
>>>> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely
>>>> removed
>>>> from
>>>> the mind of the Increate.
>>>>
>>>> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff
>>>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general
>>>>> theoretical
>>>>> observation.
>>>>>
>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Who usurping where?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a
>>>>>>> local archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> you want, but that's the concept.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think Tolkien.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe for you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't buy it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> God delegates all the time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's that thing about only God being creator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "assemble"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of "create"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is
>>>>>>>>>>>> usurping
>>>>>>>>>>>> the privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic
>>>>>>>>>>>> manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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