(urth) the voice of the outsider is the conjunction ofpas/kypris

[Gerry Quinn]

But the passage that identifies Mamelta with Kypris and Kypris's mother also says that the Outsider is a toy dancer and the water is a polished toy-top.  We cannot take the last part literally, so surely it is reasonable not to take the first literally either?

What you say about Pas's desire for an heir underlying the struggle in Mainframe is new to me.  As I understood it, the struggle in Mainframe is between Pas's desire to fulfil his original colonisation plan, and Echidna's desire to keep her congregation on board the Whorl.  Indeed, one might argue that on Urth as well as in the Whorl, Pas has hit upon a solution to his undoubted desire for a male heir - he has decided to become immortal!  I can see the logic in what you are saying; I am not clear in why it is needed to drive the plot.  Silk is a special embryo, certainly, but perhaps just one with special leadership abilities and no direct biological relationship to Typhon.  (Of course if leadership ability is genetic as it appears to be, this part of Silk's genome may well be the same as Typhon's anyway!) 

If Mamelta has had Kypris's memories and personality removed and somebody else's put in thir place, in what sense is she Kypris anyway?  She doesn't talk like her or act like her.  What do you think is the point?

[As for the creepiness or otherwise of a man looking up a woman's loins, I'm not sure how her being his mother would improve matters!]

- Gerry Quinn


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Marc Aramini 
   
  All right Gerry.  But it you have to admit it outright SAYS in the text she is.  And it says Pas "wants an heir" that is worthy, that's the whole underlying struggle in mainframe.  The Whorl is ready for Silk because Pas has set it up that way for his heir.

  I didn't just fabricate that association between Kypris and Mamelta and Mother, you know. We know Kypris possesses Hyacinth because she reminds her of herself.  And Mamelta has the same hair as Hy, is one of the only females with blue eyes which are rare in Viron, and Kypris has them too.  If this isn't enough inference for you, and is just symbolic assocation of all women, then I don't think any close readings will quite convince you.  Are you sure Eleanor Bold is Mrs. Porter, and that tree was planted on dead people?  Now that I look at Peace, that just seems like a bunch of random facts.  Nothing to em.

  If Wolfe said this any more clearly it wouldn't be a mystery at all, in my opinion. We should leave those dreams alone, I guess.

  I don't know what else to say, I've provided my evidence, and in addition there is a creepy quality to Silk looking up Mamelta's loins that is slightly redeemed by her being his mother.  Why she is on the whorl I really can't say, and this is a valid area for exploration, and in my mind the only argument against her being Kypris, since I believe it is not beyond Typhon's powers to partially or completely affect the minds of the sleepers he places on board.

  Marc

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