(urth) Losing Imitation

[Gerry Quinn]

From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
 >>>> Gerry Quinn-
>>>> He also said Urth = Green, and look at the trouble THAT'S caused!
>>>
>>> J Wynn-
>>> It doesn't mean it isn't true. It only means it has not been established 
>>> HOW it is true. I think it is true. I only doubt that the Blue/Green sun 
>>> is Urth's Sol.
>>
>> G Quinn-
>> Completely different planets, completely different biota, completely 
>> different stars, you get from one to the other in a generation ship...
>
> And yet, the author has something to say that throws a kink in our initial 
> interpretation. This reasoning of yours is like a little child's who 
> thinks his father has become scary when he puts on a halloween mask and no 
> assurances from him will make a difference. That actors in westerns are 
> actually cowboys. You created a category based on what you read, and you 
> can't be influenced by evidence to the contrary because the categories are 
> the categories.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Wolfe say he was joking when he said 
Urth is Green, and that he regretted it?

And do you not accept that the four points I made are somewhat cogent when 
it comes to the question of whether these planets are the same?


>>> J Wynn-
>>> There are at least two OTHER groups of abos identified.
>>
>> G Quinn-
>> True, but the hillmen and marshmen seem to differ culturally, not 
>> biologically.
>
> Seeming is not being.

All the universe of the story is in the book 5HoC - if "seeming" means "what 
the text tells us", then seeming is in fact being.  But anyway that is 
beside the point.  If you are saying there could be other possibilities than 
the obvious, of course you are right.


> There's no evidence the marshmen are capable of psychic connections is 
> there?

Eastwind located his twin and had him captured - the twins' connection works 
both ways.  Of course Eastwind was born a hillman.

Do you mean the psychic connection between Sandwalker and the Shadow 
Children?  It's true that no marshman[*] is shown to be capable of that, but 
there is also no evidence that they are not.  The Shadow Children say "it is 
a long time since we took a Shadow-friend from among the native populace" - 
they do not indicate that there are different types of natives.

[*] I almost wrote "marschman" for some reason, and then for a moment I 
wondered if there was any connection between "marsh" and "Marsch".  But I 
don;t think there's anything there - the human mind can make infinitely many 
links... and not all can be meaningful.


> We really don't have enough evidence on the matter. But even if it were 
> true, the hillmen and marshmen sure _seem_ a lot more human-like than the 
> "Shadow Children" (for clarity's sake I'll labeling them as though the 
> distinction were exclusive). This belies your argument. The Shadow 
> Children are not so different in looks from Sandwalker that mere human 
> differentiation could not account for it. They are far more different from 
> humans in psychic abilities. Why not assume they are _all_ human?

The Shadow Children do give an explanation for their powers.  They also 
indicate that their psychic powers in part come from the native population 
(the astral travelling in Short Sun that requires both humans and inhumi 
echoes this).

The idea that all the 'abos' are human is interesting, but it discards all 
the evidence for shapeshifting etc.

>>> J Wynn-
>>> Furthermore we KNOW abos sometimes take the forms of trees if the 
>>> stories of their reproduction are to be believed. And only a very naive 
>>> Wolfean reader would think VRT's pussy cat is just a pussy cat. There 
>>> were multiple groups of humans that came to St A/St C. Why would the 
>>> abos, so famous for changing their appearance, be in only one form?
>>
>> G Quinn-
>> I don't know about the cat, but I am pretty sure the trees are not abos. 
>> There is some sexual symbolism / mythology regarding trees, and the abos 
>> seem to think the trees father children.  Nevertheless male abos exist 
>> and have sex with females, who bear children as humans do. They copied 
>> the humans who landed first - presumably just one group, possibly 
>> monoracial.  Abos have both genders and individual appearances.
>
> Hmmm...so when reference is made to trees during mating, that's 
> sexual/symbolism--not to be taken literally--even though that is what the 
> stories about abos among humanity say (such humanity as exists on St C).

The main reason I don't take it literally is that Sandwalker and Seven Girls 
Waiting mate in the ordinary way.

> But gender differentiations could NOT be merely formal distinctions among 
> an alien race MIMICKING human behavior. What evidence causes you to fall 
> one way or another? Do you have an extra-textual model in mind that you 
> are bringing to the story?

I don't totally discount the possibility that the abos have some weird 
biology in which trees are male and smaller mobile abos are female, except 
when they are imitating males of another species.  I just don't see much 
evidence for it.

That the symbolism is evident to the abos themselves is not in doubt: "His 
tree had grown large, and she wrapped it with her hands."

And of course all this is filtered through the mind of VRT, who may have 
created his own concept of abo mythology.  No doubt he has been taught 
something of it by his mother, but his ideas are likely distorted.  Also, 
there is some meta-fictional play within the story; David in the first 
novella could not reasonably know much of abo culture, yet some of what he 
says appears in the second novella.

- Gerry Quinn