(urth) Dionysus

[James Wynn]

>> James Wynn: So, the fundamental problem with this theory, as I see it, is that it
>> casually flicks to the gutter the most fundamental attributes of the
>> Outsider. By this theory, Silk's Outsider is NOT a god outside of the
>> Whorl. Instead he is ACTUALLY and existentially _only_ an INSIDER.
>
> Lee Berman-
> James you are often a step or two ahead of me in reasoning, so it can be hard to
> keep up. I don't see this conclusion within Marc's theory. How is the Outsider
> restricted to being inside the Whorl?

The Pas and Kypris are restricted to being inside the Whorl. If they are 
The Outsider that Silk encounters, then there is nothing Outsiderish 
about Him.

> Marc Aramini -
> Haven't posted in a long long time because of all the huge resistance 
> to almost every aspect of my interpretation of Short Sun, but I will 
> attempt to respond to James' statement that the Outsider should be 
> outside.
>

Well, I hope this doesn't make you go away again. To the contrary, I 
just want to ensure you ideas are taken seriously and met with more than 
a shrug.

> Marc Aramini -
> Well, Typhon is essentially impersonating the Outsider with his 
> message to Silk.  There is still an Outsider, but his factual presence 
> in the text can be explained by Typhon just setting Silk up to think 
> he has been truly enlightened, when really its all just the Plan of 
> Pas/Typhon.  Once again, the Hubris of Typhon in trying to establish 
> himself as an Outsider when in fact he simply serves that same divine 
> will.  So the Outsider is just a myth put in the text by Typhon.
>  HOWEVER what's awesome about Wolfe is that the real true Outsider can 
> be working through Typhon's megalomaniacal impersonation ... but Wolfe 
> doesn't cheat by making a revelation actual evidence for the existence 
> of God, he gives a true secular explanation hidden under a divine one 
> that originally seems better than the lame secular one Crane gives, 
> blood vessel exploding in the brain stuff.  The irony is that the 
> weakest proposition to explain the enlightenment might be the "truest" 
> physical explanation.
> James, I am a weird Catholic and I have no problem with the 
> enlightenment of Silk being both fully Typhon and fully Yahweh, just 
> as I have no problem with evolution being fully natural and fully part 
> of a divine ordering of a free universe.  So I don't think we 
> disagree.  The Outsider is outside the whorl, but his voice is that of 
> Typhon and Kypris, Satan transfigured by love.
>

Marc,
I get what you are saying philosophically, but this interpretation 
really strikes me as destructive to the themes, narratives, and 
characterizations of Wolfe's world. You rightly say that your theory 
does not _exclude_ the possibility that by imitating gods, Pas and 
Kypris are acting in the Increate's behalf. But it certainly 
_undermines_  the likelihood of the Outsider's _genuine_ existence. What 
you are describing sounds more like something Pullman would write rather 
than Wolfe.
(I realize this is "aesthetic blowback", which can be unfair, but it's 
not the only card I intend to play, and it is necessary to address that 
portion of your justification for your theory.)

As I move on, let me reiterate. You are saying that the being who 
enlightens Silk and communicates with him is not /fundamentally/ a god 
who is outside the Whorl but /actually/ the demiurge again, Pas, and his 
consort.

This is a problem on so many levels it's bewildering. The "Outsider" 
tells Silk that Kypris, the god of Love, has become associated with Him 
and that if she were erased, in a few centuries, Thelxiepeia would 
assume that role. It would take paragraphs to explain why it is 
impossible that these words would come from Typhon/Pas. Yeah, he's 
imitating a god and so "in a sense" becomes one. But he doesn't BECOME 
the Outsider. Quetzal imitates a holy man, but he still attempts to 
guide his flock to the Hell on Green. Spider's spies have fight bravely 
for General Mint but they are still working on Potto's behalf. If you 
place the words from the Outsider to Silk at Thelx's pool into Pas' 
mouth (or even Kypris'), then entire scene and dialog becomes 
incomprehensible. It makes Pas a Chestertonian Christian having fully 
abandoned  (as far as is detectable from the reader) his own ego or 
agenda, but still carrying on a charade. It supposes Pas has knowlege 
and understanding that --if he believed it-- would cease to make him Pas 
at all.

Additionally, the demiurge-as-Increate is absolutely destructive to the 
Gnostic framework that Wolfe has created in the Whorl...a framework you 
yourself acknowledge.

I don't consider it "cheating" to have the Outsider enlighten Silk. And 
having considered a couple other rationalized options as well as this 
one, I don't think it could be any other way.

u+16b9
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