(urth) christ, already

[Gerry Quinn]

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>
> In reading Long Sun, I also got the impression that The Outsider was to be 
> considered
> the same as our God, creator of all universes. Even if this Briah universe 
> never had a
> Jesus Christ, the Outsider could enlighten Silk with his story from 
> another universe.

I agree that they are the same.  On Urth, God is known as the Increate 
(emphasing, I think, that he created all but was not himself created).  On 
(in!) the whorl, he is known as the Outsider, for a variety of reasons:

*The Whorl is ruled by (created) Gods; Typhon is not quite a god on Urth, 
but in the Whorl he has ascended to godhood, along with all his retinue. 
The Increate could not be banished from the Whorl, but he is labeled a minor 
god, an Outsider.  (Typhon and his family are the Insiders, I guess...)

*He is the god of all outside the Whorl.  Silk recognises this when he views 
the outside universe from inside the lander.  He recognises the smallness of 
Pas compared to the greatness of the Outsider/

*He is the god of the poor, the weak, the hunted... the Outsiders.  (This is 
the aspect that can be most closely related to Jesus as an aspect of the 
Outsider.)

As for Jesus as enlightened human man, I think that's how Silk would 
inevitably understand it, given his background.  Theories of homoousia and 
such are foreign to him.  (Though in fact possession does mix the substances 
of god and mon to a degree, so there may be an echo here.)

Silk's Outsider has multiple voices, either two or many - the number three 
is not mentioned.  I do not think Wolfe is emphasising the doctrine of the 
Trinity, although there is an element of multiplicity here.


The Outsider is defined in the character lists of books 2, 3 and 4 of the 
Long Sun.  As I've noted earlier, it's not quite clear whether Wolfe or Horn 
is speaking.  It may not be all that important, of course, except that Wolfe 
has more authority on the subject!  I interpret this as our (or Silk's) 
progression of understanding the Outsider:

1: No character list.

2: The minor god who enightened Silk.

3: The god of the broken and disparaged, whose realm lies outside the 
Whorl.]

4: The god of gods.

Makes things clear enough, I believe.  Although there is a hint of the 
Trinity here in reverse order; the Holy Ghost, the Son and the Father.


> Then I read Short Sun, and specifically, RttW, and my impression got 
> turned on its head.
> Wolfe goes through a long and dramatic exposition which dramatically 
> resolves in revealing
> that the Outsider is, essentially, Dionysus. It isn't just a hint, he 
> brings the Guy's
> mother (Thyone) into it!
>
> For me this says either Briah has a different God than we do or Gene Wolfe 
> is willing to
> extend the identity of our God to encompass some pagan/gnostic ideas of 
> Him. I say this in
> light of quotes below from the Gene WOlfe-James Jordan interview.

I think you may be reading too much into this.  Certainly, Silk accepts as 
possible Hound's theory that Dionysus and the Outsider may be the same. 
But this is not the first time that such an observation has been made.  In 
Calde of the Long Sun, Quetzal mentions Ah Lah.  In the list of characters, 
he is defined thusly.

Ah Lah: A forgotten god.  (Perhaps an alternative name for the Outsider.)

So we have both Dionysus and Allah mentioned in similar contexts.  Both are 
forgotten (nobody even remembers the name of the son of Thyone), while the 
Outsider is nearly forgotten on the Whorl.  On Urth (at least at Severian's 
time - which is simultaneous but in a sense later due to relativistic time 
distortion) - the Increate is somewhat less forgotten.  Typhon has built a 
closed universe in the Whorl, and expelled, as far as he is able, 
non-subservient gods.  But he was not able.

I think Wolfe is just saying that the Increate has been worshipped in 
different ways under different names, as men have groped towards the truth. 
This is not really terribly controversial or heretical.  I don't think there 
is any strong reason to import specific characteristics of Dionysus, any 
more than specific characteristics of Allah (if Allah has such, he seems 
austere in this regard).

There remains the question of Jesus.  I think this aspect of the Increate is 
strongly emphasised in the persona of the Outsider.  Allah and Dionysus, not 
so mucxh.

- Gerry Quinn