(urth) christ, already

David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net
Wed Dec 15 18:03:39 PST 2010 

I understand what you're saying. I just disagree. This is a fictional 
universe---it need follow no laws but those of its Creator. ;)

On 12/15/2010 7:06 PM, Son of Witz wrote:
> I pretty much agree with you but I feel like I'm hitting my head 
> against a wall.
> Jesus of Nazareth delivered the sermon on the mount and died on the 
> cross. Christians essentially title Jesus of Nazareth with the title 
> Christ to denote that he is the Messiah.
> Christ means Messiah (redeemer) ("Annointed one" comes after Messiah")
> Every time I use Christ no one can ever seem to separate it from Jesus.
> I have not EVER said the Outsider or Severianhas any connection with 
> the man Jesus of Nazareth or his sermons or sacrifice.
>
> SURELY, if the universe repeats itself, each universe will need a 
> Christ / Messiah / Redeemer / Conciliator to help it from Outside 
> creation, if it can be said that any of the creations have this.
>
> ~witz
>
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:cnbrewer at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>> I get the point about the Outsider being "God" but not "Christ" in 
>> the sense that the Outsider didn't deliver the sermon on the mount or 
>> actually be the body that died on the cross, etc.
>>
>> But isn't there a bigger point here that the Outsider is the 
>> Outsider. "It" is the "real" God outside of man-made mythology. We 
>> can assume that it's ultimately the God of Christianity because of 
>> what we know of Wolfe, and, textually, because of its close 
>> association with Kypris/love/etc. and because of what *we* know those 
>> thematic relationships suggest to non-fictional theology outside of 
>> the made-up world in the books.
>>
>> But, in the book, I always assumed that the real point of having the 
>> Outsider be called very deliberately "the Outsider" was that its 
>> actual nature remains largely unknown and mysterious, even to Silk 
>> after his vision. The books stress how difficult gnosis can be to 
>> come to terms with, even after direct revelation. Silk continually 
>> misunderstands the nature of the Outsider throughout the books, still 
>> trying to understand it through the "dark glass" of Pas' 
>> cobbled-together mythology at times, even as he learns how false that 
>> mythology actually is. At no point is Silk given a Bible in which he 
>> can read the gospels, etc. in any way that makes the identification 
>> of the Outsider as God/Holy Spirit/Christ really meaningful within 
>> the world of the book.
>>
>> In Long Sun, the Outsider is the real God, sure, but none of the 
>> characters ever really understands what that means in the same way 
>> that Wolfe might believe he understands it. That truth remains 
>> difficult and distant even after revelation seems to be much the 
>> point of the books.
>>
>> So I'll stick with calling it the Outsider.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com <mailto:ryan at liftingfaces.com>>
>> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net 
>> <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>> *Sent:* Wed, December 15, 2010 5:38:34 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: (urth) christ, already
>>
>> In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Christ and 
>> God are explicit, though part of the Holy Trinity. God is within 
>> Christ, and Christ symbolizes God. And God created the symbol.
>>
>> Something about symbols inventing us echoes in my mind.
>>
>> :)
>>
>> ...ryan
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:48 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net 
>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, you're the one who said Outsider=Christ.
>>>
>>> And no, Christians do not "use Christ interchangeably with God." 
>>> Even I know that.
>>>
>>> --- On *Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz /<Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org 
>>> <mailto:Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
>>>     <mailto:Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>>
>>>     Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>>     To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net
>>>     <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>>>     Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:35 PM
>>>
>>>     Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?
>>>     The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost.  Christ is an aspect of
>>>     God and is used by Christians interchangeably with God.
>>>
>>>     On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF
>>>     <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>     I'd say Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>>>
>>>>     --- On *Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz /<Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
>>>>     <mailto:Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>>/* wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
>>>>         <mailto:Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>>
>>>>         Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>>>         To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>         <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net>>
>>>>         Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>         I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again,
>>>>         but I thought that Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous
>>>>         as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>>>
>>>
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