(urth) Faterh Inire Theory cont.

[Gerry Quinn]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Mason" <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
> Gerry Quinn wrote:


> > We don't see Tzadkiel's ship until _UotNS_. In BotNS, however, we see 
> > lots
> > of ships, and indeed spend much time in them..

> Gerry, I totlally agree with your general point that Tzadkiel's ship
> isn't the only means of interstellar transport, but I'm worried about
> some of the details.
>
> > First there are the ships of the citatel, in one of which resides the 
> > Guild
> > of Torturers. Conceivably these were only fit for transport within the
> > Solar System, but there's no evidence either way.
>
> They resemble the ships known as 'landers' in _Long Sun_ and _Short
> Sun_, which suggests they are short-haul vessels. (Though perhaps they
> were meant to link up with long-haul ones.)

Fair enough - indeed the concept of a 'propulsion chamber' does not fit well 
with the idea of relativistic velocities (but then again what does?),

> >   Typhon confirms that Urth
> > at one time possessed many interstellar ships, on which many of his
> > supporters fled.
>
> But he may be lying - which is, in fact, Severian's first reaction to
> him. . I'm always surprised by how ready people are to believe what he
> says in that scene. If he had interstellar ships (which would have to
> be faster-than-light, I think, to get between the stars in times that
> would enable him actually to run an empire) it becomes puzzling what
> was the significance of his launching the Whorl - which Wolfe has said
> was intended to 'return humanity to the stars'.

Maybe they were just nearly as fast as light, i.e. good enough to escape to 
the stars.  We don;t know much - or anything, really -  about the politics 
of his empire.  And as you mention elsewhere, Vodalus confirms the fact of 
ships, so it's not just Typhon.

As for the Whorl, perhaps it is a question of scale.  The Whorl can 
transport many millions of perhaps unwilling colonists.  Smaller vessels 
might not transport enough, and might also be even more prone to mission 
creep.

[The Whorl itself is also contradictory from another technological point of 
view.  If you consider the energy required to accelerate an object of this 
mass to relativistic velocity, it will be apparent that the dimming of the 
Sun, or even its complete extinction, should have been easily compensatable. 
But perhaps it is best not to look too closely into such details.]

> > Jonas served on an interstellar ship which crashed on Urth a little 
> > north of
> > Nessus. This ship became incorporated within the House Absolute; the
> > Antechamber was part of it. It was equipped with a set of mirrors which
> > apparently had interstellar capability. (These may or may not be the 
> > same
> > ones used by Fr. Inire.)
>
> Jonas was on an interstellar ship which crashed, certainly (which in
> itself supports your point). There also seems to have been a ship
> which crashed in the gorunds of the House Absolute, and whose
> passengers became residents of the antechamber. I don't see any
> evidence that it was the same ship - Jonas recognises the name 'Kim
> Lee Soong' as one that would have been common in his youth, but
> doesn't say 'Oh yes, he was an old mate of mine'. And I also don't see
> any evidence that the antechamber was _part_ of the ship - I took it
> that the passengers were found trespassing in the grounds of the House
> Absolute, and thrown into the antechamber, as such people are. (I also
> don't remember anything about Jonas's ship having mirrors, but I may
> just be forgetting that.)

Remember, it was not just the name that Jonas recognised.  He also 
recognised the architecture "that was what we used to call a drop ceiling". 
And after they escaped from the Antechamber, Jonas immediately knew where to 
go to find the mirrors, which he used to escape somewhere off Urth (he said 
earlier "I know where we are.. we are on Urth").  I conclude that it was 
Jonas's ship, or one just like it - at it seems more elegant that it be the 
same vessel..

Perhaps some of the ship's crew stayed aboard and were interned there 
pending resolution of their cases, and it later became used for other 
individuals.


> On the other hand: Vodalus talks about humans in the first empire
> leaping between the stars, and even the galaxies, in their own ships
> (not just as crew in ships commanded by Hierodules). Admittedly
> Vodalus isn't the most reliable witness, but no one ever says he is
> wrong; the dispute is about how those days can be brought back, not
> about whether they existed.
>
> Severian in _Urth_ mentions the ships putting into Port of Lune - I
> don't get the impression they are just going to Verthandi and Skuld;
> the question is raised whether Tzadkiel's ship is the only
> long-distance one, but I think in this context Sirius, say, would not
> count as long-distance.

Severian does at some point refer to "the nearer stars" as if there are 
distant and poweful alien empires also.

> Now there is a line where Sidero, quoting Tzadkiel, says 'There is
> only one ship. All the ships we hail between the stars are this ship.'
> This line is very mysterious, given how much else seems inconsistent
> with it. (It might be the only such ship in Severian's time, but as it
> travels through time that shouldn't be relevant.) Context doesn't help
> much, since Sidero is in a confused state when he says it. I wonder if
> it should really be taken in a more mystical sense as meaning 'this is
> the archetypal ship; all the others are imitations of it'.

Perhaps it is the only one of its type.  The idea probably comes from a 
whimsical physical conceit (I think Feynman thought of it, but it might have 
been Wheeler) that all electrons in the universe may be the same electron, 
travelling forward and backward in time. [Of course it is not really 
correct.]

It may also be that Tzadkiel's ship travels where no others do.

- Gerry Quinn