(urth) Father Inire Theory cont.

[David Stockhoff]

On 12/10/2010 4:04 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>> David Stockhoff- Lee, I'm not trying to be unfair. The Devil runs a very different kind
>> of game than does Lucifer. They are not the same. If you say Devil, I read Devil. If you
>> say Lucifer, I read Lucifer. It helps to say what you mean as much as you can---it would
>> save us all a lot of words. :)
>
> This sounds a bit like the "Dionysus cannot have anything to do with lianas unless they have
> grapes on them, even if Gene Wolfe calls them vines" cavil. I am not an expert demonologist
> and perhaps you are. In my experience most people find a connection between Lucifer and the Devil.
> If they are completely different, unrelated entities to you I think I am too uneducated to discuss
> the issue. I just get the feeling Gene Wolfe is writing for people who think Lucifer and the Devil
> are connected but what do I know.
>
> I've mentioned there is a BotNS character who seems unequivocally good but with a Lucifer-association.
> Maybe Father Inire is best described as "demi-urge". Maybe Hethor is best described as "devil". I don't
> know. They all seem like aspect of the same basic principle to me, but what do I know. Not much I guess.
It's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in 
distinctions between them. The character Lucifer is largely derived from 
Milton. The Devil is an American folk character who trades in souls. And 
so on.
>   
>> Yes, if Urth is Abaddon...
>
> No, that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying that if Abaddon is hell from a Briah point of view then
> perhaps Briah (and Urth) is hell from our point of view from a higher universe with a true Christ-figure.
That's exactly what I was saying, and exactly what I thought you were 
saying. I think.
>
>> No, I don't think Hethor needs to be Inire. Only Inire needs to be Inire.
> Does that mean only Tzadkiel needs to be Tzadkiel? Isn't it possible other entities in the story can
> perform his/her tricks to a lesser degree? Tzadkiel's largest form (that we see) is described as big
> as an island. Erebus and Abaia are a bit smaller, being only the size of mountains.
I don't understand.
>
>> How can the Devil (Serpent, Lucifer) serve anyone but himself?
>
> How can multiple copies of Tzadkiel all serve Tzadkiel? How can multiple copies of Great God Pan
> all serve Pan? How can both The Commonwealth and the Ascian lands be controlled by anti-human, demonic
> forces? I hope this illustrates how all Urth could be considered a demi-urgic creation of the being we
> usually call Father Inire. Whispers in the ears of all leaders.
Sure, but you said Erebus controls Inire. Who controls the Devil, or the 
Serpent, or Lucifer? No one. You need to set up a model and stick to it.
>
> Can a portion of a larger being rebel against its larger self? Perhaps we see a tiny example of that
> for Tzadkiel? It might not be true. That portion of Tzadkiel is still pretty and still
> serves Tzadkiel I think. Just an angelic ruse to let us/Severian know smaller parts can rebel against the
> larger parental unit.
>
> I think (in BotNS) when a portion of Tzadkiel truly falls and becomes separated from angelic grace (and
> leaves the ship for good) we can tell because it becomes ugly. Hence Hethor, Inire and The Cumaean. 		 	   		
The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she 
also the Devil? Is she Inire?
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