(urth) Father Inire theory

Sun Dec 5 09:40:54 PST 2010

Lee Berman wrote:

>>Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or
>>five years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when
>>Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.
>
> We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.
> Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently
> operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.

But does this not undemine the idea of Inire keeping a constant watch
on Severian, which I thought was one of the things motivated this
theory?  He clearly is keeping a watch on Severian, and I'm open to
the idea that he is doing so in secret ways as well as the ways we
know about; and that the various simians are linked with this is a
plausible hypothesis, since there does seem to be a weirdly recurring
theme which needs some explanation. But that implies a single centre
of consciousness at which the tracking takes place. If Inire is
divided into various parts - and has been for a long time, if the
boatman is one of them - it's not clear that there is any longer a
single plan to what he is doing.

(So unlike some, I think the monkeys are actually the most plausible
part of the theory. There's something going on, and it is somehow
connected with Inire. But the more diverse kinds of similarity are
allowed into the theory, the less compelling it looks, as far as I can
see.)

>
> The process is after the pattern we see in Abaia with his multiple agent undines like Juturna
> and Idas I think we see the process starting with Great Scylla at the end of RttW with the army
> of black-cloaked clones growing up from her back. We get the clearest view of it with Tzadkiel
> shapeshifting into to animals and humans and angels of various sizes and genders.
>
> But whether it be furry beast, hairy troglodyte, Adonis-human, male or female angel, somehow
> Severian, like the youngest suitor in Foila's story, can always identify the shape-shifter. Now
> (I ask myself) if Severian can identify Tzadkiel in all those various guises, why can't he
> identify Inire in all his forms?
>
> The answer is truly central and key to my GUT theory. The answer being that Severian can probably
> identify Father Inire in all his versions. So why doesn't he tell us? The answer is:
>
> For the same reason Agilus will not openly tell Severian about his incestuous relationship with
> his sister. For the same reason Severian will not openly tell us that he knows Dorcas, his lover,
> is his grandmother. Severian knows Father Inire's shameful place in his family and, as an unreliable
> narrator, is certainly not going to tell us about it. Not in so many words, anyway.
>
> I think Wolfe writes BotNS about Severian in first person so that we might know what it would be like
> to be a contemporary school chum of a greek hero like Heracles. To be friends with him and really know
> the guy. But what would Heracles say if you asked him, "Hey Herk, why is your twin brother so different
> from you; why are you are so big and strong and he is not?"
>
> I suggest that in that situation, Heracles would hem and haw and dissemble and lie or do whatever it took
> to avoid telling you, "Look, Zeus disguised himself as my father and raped my mother, then my father had
> sex with her the same night, so she got pregnant with us as twins but we have different fathers". Its just
> embarassing and the family's dirty linen isn't something you air out among friends.
>
> Actually I detect a number of really shameful things going on with Severian that he indirectly reveals in
> his narrative without openly revealing them.  I guess it might be based on a personal conceit but I think
> I know how liars talk when they are lying. And so does Gene Wolfe. He has Severian, and Agilus and the Old
> Leech and Rudesind and others lie to us throughout the text. Eventually you can pick up the pattern.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 20:22:56 -0800
> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: (urth) Monty Python's New Sun
> Message-ID: <2E20E67A-6663-477A-84C6-860E45AF9FE2 at butcherbaker.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
>
> I'm doing dishes, laughing my ass off imagining a Monty Python version of Book of The New Sun.
>
> I can't write the jokes, but I can SEE it!
>
> And now for something completely different.
>
>
> Sorry.
> ~witz
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:40:01 -0500
> From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
> To: <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: (urth) Father Inire Theory
> Message-ID: <SNT123-W34E93F8438E6DB822337A0CF2A0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The
> objection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions
> of Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of
> beings.
>
> Using what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated
> that the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a
> a replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets
> demoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy.
>
> But when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered
> a different thing happened to the gods.  A process of demonizing the foreign gods and
> angelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status
> of any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting
> types but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens.
>
> The goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized
> into Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others.
>
> In BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia,
> Erebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a
> pre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially
> of a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious
> opine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 23:43:26 -0500
> From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory
> Message-ID: <B90D8011-FBEC-47D9-B398-7F786575160C at liftingfaces.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> But I do think we should use Zak in UotNS as a clue pointing back to the original four volumes. Meaning there's a shapeshifter we should have known about.
>
> That's my two cents on the matter anyhow. I do believe most of of the major messages from UotNS Gene expected we could deduce from the source text. I think it was a little bit of a clue book also, though I haven't studied it deep enough to be certain.
>
> ...ryan
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:40 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>
>>
>> Someone (I forget who) brought up an objection that I forgot to address. The
>> objection was that we can't compare the shapeshifting and multiple body versions
>> of Tzadkiel with Father Inire because they are two completely different sorts of
>> beings.
>>
>> Using what I've been calling the gnostic religious view I think it can be demonstrated
>> that the opposite is true. As Greece went from primitive to civilized we see a
>> a replacement and demotion of old pantheons of gods for new. Major vine god Dionysus gets
>> demoted to minor wine god among the Olympians, but he's still around and not a bad guy.
>>
>> But when the Greeks expanded their conquest outward, and more foreign cultures were conquered
>> a different thing happened to the gods.  A process of demonizing the foreign gods and
>> angelicizing one's own gods started to take place. The fortunes of war could change the status
>> of any given god back and forth. So, angels, demons and pagan gods are all immortal, shapeshifting
>> types but are labeled based on whether they are perceived as being good, bad or has-beens.
>>
>> The goat god Dionysus/Pan might be elevated to the highest deification by some groups, demonized
>> into Azazel or Satan by others and dismissed as mythology by yet others.
>>
>> In BotNS, I think we have the analog or allegory for pagan gods (Inire, Cumaean), demons (Abaia,
>> Erebus) and angels at a couple levels (hierogrammates, hierodules). Given that this is a
>> pre-Christian, gnostic world/universe, I think we can understand that these beings are essentially
>> of a similar kind and have similar power and abilities. As Wolfe has Horn suggest in a religious
>> opine from Short Sun, the only difference between a minor god and a major devil is good intentions.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 20:47:47 -0800
> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Who's Right
> Message-ID: <CEA6FBA6-9F31-4CE5-8F90-477FDB7FA680 at butcherbaker.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> On Dec 4, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/4/2010 9:19 AM, Son of Witz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson<jwilson at io.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> (It may be worthwhile to note that in the much smaller citadel of the 1950's A&M campus, at least one building had prominent animal skull relief on the fascia.)
>>>
>>> Might you share an image link, good sir?
>>
>> I'm still hunting for archived images; there were not many of the older bldgs left when I went back a couple of years ago to document them. Back in my salad days of the class of 91, there were several collections of older images on display at the campus, but they've moved along as well. One I really want to find was about the vanished library - still there, but totally concealed by subsequent additions and remodeling until it was a minor part of the "new" library, seen here:
>>
>> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/23570465
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
>> Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
>
>
> That's neat about the library.  How is A&M like a citadel? I'm totally ignorant.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 21:08:43 -0800
> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory
> Message-ID: <FBC71D76-4C55-4AAD-8870-E5CFEC471DE9 at butcherbaker.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can appreciate
>> the tendency toward peer-reviewing ideas about this story as though it were science with the need
>> for vigorous gatekeeping. But my preferred approach is to view the process as art/literature
>> appreciation and its encouragement of creative thinking.
>
>
> While I believe there are rights and wrongs to interpretations, I'm getting a kick out of your idea whether it's right or not.
> ~witz
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2010 23:38:07 -0600
> From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory
> Message-ID: <4CFB253F.5040200 at io.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or
>>> five years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when
>>> Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.
>>
>> We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.
>> Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently
>> operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.
>
>
> That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are
> shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many
> respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?
>  The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the
> necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are
> practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape
> men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they
> all carbon copy gods as well?
>
> --
> Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
> Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
> < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 00:42:36 -0500
> From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Father Inire Theory
> Message-ID: <BA3A9A60-4931-47DA-8758-D9A97E259102 at liftingfaces.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
>
>> On 12/4/2010 10:07 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jeff Wilson: Maxellindis' uncle was under constant observation by Eata for four or
>>>> five years on their boat before *he* died, also during the time when
>>>> Inire was actively serving Autarch Severian.
>>>
>>> We could thus disqualify Maxellindis' uncle from consideration as a version of Inire.
>>> Or it could be a push toward option 2: The multiple versions of Inire are independently
>>> operating copies of a larger god-like being. I've been leaning toward #2 for a while.
>>
>>
>> That would suggest that Severian and Dux Caesidius and Ouen are shape-shifting godlets, as they resemble each other in just as many respects. Agia and Agilus are even more alike, surely they are as well?  The Path of Air woman, Catherine, and the woman stolen from the necropolis are likewise suspiciously similar. The village sorcerers are practically all alike other than their names, and then there are the ape men at the mine who don't even have names to set them apart. Are they all carbon copy gods as well?
>
>
> To paraphrase with less snarkiness... Jeff Wilson does not believe Father Inire to be a shapeshifter.
>
> Merry Christmas!
>
> ...ryan
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Urth Digest, Vol 76, Issue 35
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