(urth) Who's Right

[Son of Witz]

Hey I can relate Ryan.  My posts are usually ignored unless I acidently offend Catholics.

Yeah, I didn't quite agree with my friend who turned me onto these when he said, "Everything is in the four books." only on this last read did I realize he was right.

~witz

On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:46 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:

> Thank you, for that response. I was beginning to think the name of the game here was to read someone else's theory and then make fun of it.
> 
> :)
> 
> I kid. I kid.
> 
> I also think that your Famulimus quote is pointed, though just about all of the "messages" in UotNS are things I think Gene felt we should have deduced from the original four volumes. Not all of the story, but the messages drawn from them.
> 
> Again, thanks.
> 
> ...ryan
> 
> 
> On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Son of Witz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Yes, Severian is a puppet, an actor.  He always was. Even the first time he puts on Fuligin it is an act. (when he heals Triskele).
>> 
>> The book states that he was chosen for his memory.
>> 
>> In UotNS L
>> ""You're conscious. What do you remember?" "Everything," I said. "I've always remembered everything." Dissolution was in the air, the fetor of rotting flesh. Famulimus sang, "For that were you chosen, Severian. You and you alone from many princes. You alone to save your race from lethe."
>> 
>> Then there is the exiled Tzadkiel he finds in the corridors of time. This Tzadkiel doesn't know why she is exiled, but it's possible that this point in the extreme past is when the heirogrammates became sure that he would bring the New Sun.
>> 
>> Yes, there are clearly opposing forces steering him, but what is confusing is that they end up consciously helping him.  Baldanders fights for him at the Trial. Agia rescues him from Ascians.
>> 
>> What I really don't get is Agia. She seems so random,but follows him all that way then replaces Vodalus.  This weirds me out.
>> 
>> I figure that before Severian walks in on Baldanders and the three Heirodules, they must have realized that he wanted to bring the New Sun, but that he wouldn't. So I guess they got an idea to put Baldanders in Severian's path. They would have done this when they were further down the time stream, before Severian meets Baldanders.  There isn't much to support this, but it seems like it must have happened.  I mean, why were they wandering performing that play? I think this is also why Baldanders never lets the play finish.  Especially at the House Absolute. When he saw the Heirodules in the audience, he probably go enraged, realizing that they had played him to their purposes.
>> 
>> I don't think that the interest in Severian is his ressurection powers.  I think that is probably a surprise to most, if any of his enemies even know about it.
>> 
>> I think the Heiros also sense his presence stretched through time. Just as the sleeper can be felt, or Apu Punchau can wake.
>> 
>> I agree that it is not a biblical tome.  I have only read the Sun Series and Latro, but these all seem to be memiors written by legends who don't know they are legends.  How would an autobiography of Jesus or Hercules read. About the fun on each page - Yes! The inclusion of the Second House - everywhere coextensive with the first house, Is a clue as to how to read the story. severian wonders how many people came to the House Absolute hoping for intrigue, only to have it playing in the hidden halls an ell from their sleeping heads.
>> 
>> However, the nature of the enemies he faces in Sword & Citadel are loaded with commentary on how to align oneself to the Increate, but that is a long essay. I think Wolfe is very serious about that.
>> 
>> ~Witz
>> 
>> On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> To be even more pointed, I think the inclusion of stage plays and puppeteering and books within books is a huge clue that Severian's entire existence is something of a stage play, with him as the hero puppet.
>>> 
>>> People debate the coincidences versus free thought, but to me it's all a ruse. Raise him in a guild, instill every trait possible, send him out into the world knowing he will end up at the war, guide him along his way but let him think he is a free man, in truth he is the opposite.
>>> 
>>> What you're left with is a cast of characters in various states of awareness all acting out moments which comprise a greater mission: restore the New Sun, save Urth, help the hieros.
>>> 
>>> If previous Severians succeeded at this, we wouldn't be reading this one's tome.
>>> 
>>> I mean so many characters have ulterior motives. Agia, Hethor, Inire, Palaemon, Autarch, Baldanders, previous Severians, even Jonas. All of their plans involve Severian as a key player, but who the hell is Severian? What makes him so special? A torturers apprentice? Orphaned? And yet sent on a crash course with the cosmos from such an early age.
>>> 
>>> Getting away from mythology and religion, and focus on the actual guts of the story, the narration seems to point to a more holistic truism: That Severian is simply a puppet, and what we are reading in BotNS is what Pinnochio may have sounded like if it were written from Pinnochio's POV.
>>> 
>>> That's my opinion anyhow. If you subscribe to it, then the fun of re-reading is to follow the moves, look around the corner, call everything into question not out of paranoia or to make a theory fit, but to find the tricks. The hoodwinking. Gene has plenty of it in plain sight. Severian is almost constantly being deceived. But how much more can be interpreted this way which ISN'T in plain sight, but discoverable after some wise deduction.
>>> 
>>> Were not reading Genes attempt at a Biblical tome, I dint think. We are reading a Fantasy Mystery book designed with a lighter hand. There's fun around each page, and reading it in this way, well then I think wondering why Agias skull sounds line a metal hammer when it taps concrete, or why we should care about a red, wizened, humankind monkey watching Severian from the treetops might be worth wondering.
>>> 
>>> ...ryan
>>> 
>>> On Dec 3, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Ryan Dunn- My perception of the BotNS, in my readings, leads me more down the "we're watching you," 
>>>>> premise, where others may not feel that is as central to the story.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm with you on that Ryan. My Father Inire ideas can be rendered silly by focusing on the ephemera 
>>>> like monkeys and hair color and ignoring the central theme which is that Severian is being watched and 
>>>> steered. It is a common debator's trick.
>>>> 
>>>> In my view, Severian is being watched and steered by more than once force, forces which are, to some 
>>>> degree, in opposition. Though, of course, by hammer and anvil analogy, the Increate needs both forces to 
>>>> shape Severian into what he must become.
>>>> 
>>>> There are the forces from the sky who are steering Severian toward creating Ushas and thus ensuring the
>>>> creation of their race. But I think there is also a faction on Urth that wants something else from Severian.
>>>> 
>>>> As I recently outlined in a private correspondence I think this "something else" can be winnowed from the
>>>> words of the Old Leech who has left Nessus to work for Vodalus in the Jungle seeking knowledge nobody else 
>>>> has ever had. I think the target of his studies must be the only person who has such unique knowledge: Severian.
>>>> He alone in the universe has the "knowledge"/ability of true resurrection of the dead.
>>>> 
>>>> Many of the episodes to which Severian seems steered towards can be interpreted as for the purpose of observing
>>>> him in action: Dorcas at the lake, avern duel, Little Severian, Typhon, Miles, Leech etc. Leaving Urth then 
>>>> returning, the action resumes with Ceryx and Zama.
>>>> 
>>>> There has been much discussion on this board of Severian's resurrection powers, usually in a Christian context.
>>>> I notice that the desire for resurrection from the dead is a recurring theme in pagan mythology. Gods and 
>>>> heroes are often going to the Underworld to try to restore a loved one, usually with poor results. On Urth
>>>> there are some sub-standard methods of resurrection as seen from Vodalus, The Cumaean and Ceryx. I can 
>>>> understand a conspiracy by the older powers to try to wrest the secret of true resurrection from the Christ-
>>>> figure before he becomes aware of his own special status.                         
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