(urth) The Guild's Revolutionary

aaron aaronsingleton at gmail.com
Sat Nov 21 17:51:11 PST 2009


As I am sure most of you know, Wolfe seems to be fond of bad puns, so I
definitely wouldn't put it past him to use one here.  His sense of humor,
according to him, is pretty strange.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 5:54 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> Fascinating!
>
> The "apparatus" is clearly a Kafka reference, and one that has been in my
> memory since I first I read that story as a child.
>
> My take on the exchange between Thecla and Gurloes involves Gurloes
> deliberately and delicately misunderstanding Thecla's question. He knew what
> she was asking and politely declined to answer. As a deflecting device, he
> more or less pretended that he thought she meant "What's it like"?, because
> he couldn't respond to her question as a technical one anyway.
>
> The thing works entirely inside the brain with nothing to observe but the
> effects afterward. Thus, Gurloes knew no more of its mechanism than we do.
> The only way he could have more knowledge of it is by experiencing it
> himself. So he treats her a little bit like a doctor telling a child that
> "it won't hurt"---a white lie if you will. Also, hinting that when he's done
> with her she'll understand better than he could have explained, so there is
> no point.
>
> It used to drive me crazy that the Revolutionary doesn't spin, but I agree
> that the pun solution is unavoidable. However, it's notable that Thecla
> doesn't already know how it works. It may or may not be used only on
> high-ranking rebels, but you'd think some word would have gotten out among
> such people that the Revolutionary awaited them---or else why use it?
>
> On the other hand, perhaps it is rare that the Guild gets such people at
> all, and therefore it uses the device only rarely.
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:03:16 -0500
>> From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
>>
>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Guild's Revolutionary
>> Message-ID:
>>        <cbf55b100911211403o13a87859rd2bb50be877711d2 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:40 PM, John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Isn't Thecla put to the Revolutionary because she is a revolutionary?
>>> Or at least associated
>>> with her sister, who has joined the revolutionary Vodalus.   Those who
>>> revolt against the
>>> sacred authority have their hands revolt against them.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, Vodalus isn't really a rebel, and she's only associated with her
>> sister, but anyway; that seems like a possible reason, but that's
>> terrible - the method of execution chosen for a pun?
>> But now that I think about it, maybe that works. Just before they
>> reach the Revolutionary, we read Gurloes say:
>>
>>
>>
>>>                                                              Behind it
>>> there .
>>> . . if you'll take a step this way you'll be able to see it better . . .
>>> is what
>>> we call the apparatus. It is supposed to letter whatever slogan is
>>> demanded in
>>> the client's flesh, but it is seldom in working order.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps this is interpreted otherwise by y'all, but to me this is a
>> very obviously a reference to Franz Kafak's "In The Penal Colony"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Penal_Colony
>> If one cannot use the writing machine to engrave 'do not rebel!' or
>> whatever, perhaps a joke like that is the best that can be done.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> --- On Sat, 11/21/09, Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> So the Revolutionary induces, specifically alien hand
>>>> syndrome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> More like alien-body syndrome, as her mouth and both her
>>> hands attack her, not just her right hand. ?But I agree
>>> that it's quite possible that alien-hand syndrome
>>> inspired Wolfe here.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That's true; I don't see any mention in the WP article of losing
>> control of both hands or of one's mouth. (But then, in the split-brain
>> scenarios Jeff suggests, there's still lateralization: a hand and the
>> mouth go to one faction in the brain, and the other hand to the other;
>> there isn't alternating control of all of them.)
>>
>>
>>
>>> Another case of Wolfe cloaking science behind fantasy
>>>> ('like a demon')?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'd say the wires and needle give this definite
>>> scientific trappings.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It definitely does, but it's still coy - 'lightning' rather than
>> 'electricity'. I remember in my first reading ever, this was the scene
>> that made me sure that the author really was working under a warped
>> Clarke's 3rd Law.
>>
>>
>>
>>> But the Revolutionary is 'the most hallowed of all' the
>>>> torture-devices, and Gurloes also "I couldn't describe it
>>>> [what it
>>>> does], Chatelaine. Anyway, I've never had it done, you
>>>> see.", both of which imply use is very rare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't get that any of that implies that its use is rare.
>>> Gurloes means he's never had it done to him, that is, he's
>>> never been a victim of it (which is obvious, hence "you
>>> see").
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But Thecla is not stupid; she knows Gurloes can't give her any
>> description from having had the Revolutionary used on himself. So she
>> couldn't be asking for that, and Gurloes couldn't be answering that.
>> 'had it done' doesn't mean have it done to yourself. One can say 'I
>> had the roof done' or, 'My car broke down, so I couldn't go, you see';
>> in this case, Gurloes never having actually used the Revolutionary
>> explains his reply best, and this also fits with the most-hallowed
>> description.
>>
>>
>>
>>> "I couldn't describe it" may mean he's not
>>> allowed to; whether that's true or not, he certainly
>>> knows as well as Severian what it does. ?And I don't
>>> think "the most hallowed of all" implies anything about
>>> how often it's used.
>>>
>>> Jerry Friedman
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hallowed things don't get used all the time. The Shroud of Turin is
>> publicly displayed every decade or so; the relics of Aachen Cathedral
>> annually; the Ethiopian's 'Ark of the Covenant' never.
>>
>> Not to mention, if they were routinely using it, wouldn't it be
>> broken? The guns are headed that way, and guns seem more reliable than
>> whatever the Revolutionary is - the relatively simple mechanical
>> engraver is already broken beyond their ability to repair.
>>
>> (I also searched through the 4 books; the Revolutionary is only
>> mentioned 3 or 4 times after that, and always in a Thecla context.)
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>



-- 
Aaron Singleton
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20091121/aaaca880/attachment-0003.htm>


More information about the Urth mailing list