(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31

Robin Dunn bigbadgerjohnny at gmail.com
Tue May 19 15:14:17 PDT 2009


Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!

Tear down the SUVs!  tear down the McDonalds!  Unite as Brothers! ;)
Burn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno!   Instatiate the
Group of Seventeen for all time!


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM,  <urth-request at lists.urth.net> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)
>   2. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)
>   3. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (brunians at brunians.org)
>   4. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)
>   5. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>   6. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>   7. Re:  Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)
>   8. Re:  Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500
> From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>
>> I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and
>> name them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic
>> ways to express plain reality.
>
> Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think
> "extortion" is any closer to "plain reality" than "dues."
>
> I am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true.  But then I believe
> we probably, at heart, disagree on "plain reality."
>
> Adam
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)
> From: brunians at brunians.org
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> You're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you about
> him in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are just
> pretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.
>
> Go on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and have
> no real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly falling
> into one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for fun,
> not blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless you
> tie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.
>
>
>
> ...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
> warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
> resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
> to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
> in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
> time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
> It is its natural manure.
>
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the
>> pleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration
>> with graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-
>> seated state for carrying out the will of society?
>>
>> At some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and
>> shared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that
>> together a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.
>>
>> The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven
>> market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of
>> cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As
>> wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer
>> taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market
>> where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the
>> consumer.
>>
>> Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave
>> relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling
>> taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of
>> profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?
>>
>> Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a
>> civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by
>> right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by
>> economic manipulation.
>>
>> Tell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the civil
>> government to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.
>>>
>>> Taxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible for
>>> things that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the
>>> military and things related to the military, infrastructure and
>>> certain
>>> kinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation be
>>> explicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the
>>> things-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.
>>>
>>> Of course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time
>>> it is
>>> necessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite
>>> there yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of us
>>>>> arguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a
>>>>> Hobbesian
>>>>> all-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is
>>>> theft to the position that some governments are legitimate without
>>>> giving up on the first one.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)
> From: brunians at brunians.org
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.
>
> -- PKD (I think).
>
> .
>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things and
>>> name them plainly, rather than search for more comforting, euphemistic
>>> ways to express plain reality.
>>
>> Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think
>> "extortion" is any closer to "plain reality" than "dues."
>>
>> I am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true.  But then I believe
>> we probably, at heart, disagree on "plain reality."
>>
>> Adam
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
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>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500
> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <BD4FACD5AAA943568DAC238C1E3F3911 at eMachinePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>        reply-type=response
>
> Adam, in "The Devil in a Forest", Wolfe presents the issue moral terms. If
> I'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying less
> for that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than just going
> to his door and demanding the money?
> Okay. Here are your three options:
>
>>Adam sez:
>>Of course, "fund it to the same degree," and "robbing from the rich to
>>give to the poor," each themselves admit multiple interpretations.
>>One way of "funding it to the same degree" would be to demand a flat
>>amount from each citizen.
>
> This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too much
> fairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if the
> poor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu.
>
>>One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,
>>regardless of income.  This is usually what Libertarians claim to  like.
>>However, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)  observation
>>that the marginal value of money decreases the more of it  you have.
>
> Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn it.
> You're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who
> created it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like the guy
> making $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores the
> risks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to create
> that wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far more
> BENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy. Some
> would say the differences therefore balance out so that both should pay the
> same rate.
>
> The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It has to
> do with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority of the
> voting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger number and
> have a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for 95% of
> government services if they are seen as fee-for-service.  You probably
> wouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased taxes
> appealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any of
> them?).
>
>>Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount  of
>>inconvenience at all levels of income.  This is approximately what
>>progressive income taxes attempt to do.
>
> How does a progressive tax provide "the same amount  of inconvenience at all
> levels of income"? Or do you mean "we'll tax you more if you have more and
> we'll do the same to other guy who has more too"? What if we taxed every one
> making $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally logical?
> But we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is
> democracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting blocks
> (home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting others
> (cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living).
>
>> "Robbing from the rich to give to the poor," is simply the same  argument
>> stood on its head, of course.  Does taxation go from  "legitimate" to
>> "robbery" at a value derived from the absolute dollar  value of the tax,
>> from a percentage of income across all income  ranges, or to a degree of
>> inconvenience across all income ranges?
>
> How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together to fund
> a new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or they
> could all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could vote
> that Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need the
> well---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can "afford it". How
> is that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have for
> supper?
>
> J.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400
> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: urth at lists.urth.net
> Message-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Yeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.
>
>
> --- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>
>
>> > From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
>> > Mao was a perceptive guy about some
>> > things. Power and how to use it, for
>> > instance. Decent poet also, I'm told.
>> >
>> > Not a very nice man, but pretty smart.
>> >
>> > If three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller
>> > agree about
>> > something, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> >
>>
>>> > > If Mao said it, it must be true.
>>> > >
>>> > > ------------------------------
>
>
> ---
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400
> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: urth at lists.urth.net
> Message-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Of course you have.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: brunians at brunians.org
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <4290.67.142.130.18.1242769467.squirrel at brunians.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>> > Somalia's economy is not "based on" piracy. It was based on fishing and
>> > herding before global shipping killed all the fish.
>>
>
> The fishing went away because Somalia, lacking a government, lacks a Coast
> Gaurd (see my post about necessary things which may be paid for by
> taxation) and therefore every industrial fishing boat in the world went
> there to glom on their fish.
>
> I think that bits of herding still go on.
>
> Somalia has been a pit for centuries. How did the Italians do running it?
> I've been in favor of giving large chunks of Africa back to the colonial
> powers for some time now.
>
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:08:44 PM
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> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:10:38 -0400
> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
> To: urth at lists.urth.net
> Message-ID: <4A132E5E.9060401 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Thank you for this.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500
> From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii;       format=flowed;  delsp=yes
>
> ...
> The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven
> market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of
> cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As
> wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer
> taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a market
> where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the
> consumer.
>
> Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave
> relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling
> taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of
> profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic oligarchy?
>
> Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a
> civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses by
> right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by
> economic manipulation.
> ...
>
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:11:51 -0400
> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: urth at lists.urth.net
> Message-ID: <4A132EA7.2030908 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I always try to keep that in mind when I read your posts.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
> From: brunians at brunians.org
> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <10065.67.142.130.18.1242769896.squirrel at brunians.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>> > By the way, who is Josh Geller?  (When I ask it that way,
>> > the initials are a little disturbing.)
>>
>
> Late twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.
>
> "Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the known facts."
>
> -- Geller's Second Law
>
>
>
> ---
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> http://www.avast.com
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31
> ************************************
>



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