(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31
brunians at brunians.org
brunians at brunians.org
Tue May 19 15:26:38 PDT 2009
I'm a Copperhead.
.
> brunians, are you a bona fide Southerner, or is your term for the American
> Civil War an affectation?
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:20 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>
>> Actually, the way you tell that it's getting close to shoot-the-bastards
>> time is that *everyone*, including the cops, is talking about it getting
>> close to shoot-the-bastards time, on one side of the argument or
>> another,
>> depending on the loyalties of the region that you are in. Anyone
>> disagrees
>> they keep quiet. That's how it was before the American Revolution and
>> that
>> is how it was before the War Between The States.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>> > Into the streets with your Robin Hood hats!
>> >
>> > Tear down the SUVs! tear down the McDonalds! Unite as Brothers! ;)
>> > Burn the neocons at the stake like Giordano Bruno! Instatiate the
>> > Group of Seventeen for all time!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <urth-request at lists.urth.net> wrote:
>> >> Send Urth mailing list submissions to
>> >> urth at lists.urth.net
>> >>
>> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>> >>
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>> >>
>> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (Adam Thornton)
>> >> 2. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> (brunians at brunians.org)
>> >> 3. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> (brunians at brunians.org)
>> >> 4. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (James Wynn)
>> >> 5. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>> >> 6. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>> >> 7. Re: Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30 (David Stockhoff)
>> >> 8. Re: Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) (David Stockhoff)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:00:17 -0500
>> >> From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <7128DCCE-0E7C-4291-A0FA-D5855BC96A02 at io.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things
>> and
>> >>> name them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,
>> euphemistic
>> >>> ways to express plain reality.
>> >>
>> >> Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think
>> >> "extortion" is any closer to "plain reality" than "dues."
>> >>
>> >> I am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe
>> >> we probably, at heart, disagree on "plain reality."
>> >>
>> >> Adam
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 2
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:03:48 -0400 (EDT)
>> >> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <14123.67.142.130.18.1242770628.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>> >>
>> >> You're familiar with Thomas Jefferson, right Lane? They taught you
>> about
>> >> him in law school or college or something, I am sure, and you are
>> just
>> >> pretending to be ignorant for rhetorical effect.
>> >>
>> >> Go on with you: I am feeling favorably disposed towards you now and
>> have
>> >> no real desire to explain Jeffersonianism to you, almost certainly
>> >> falling
>> >> into one or more of your lawyerly traps along the way. I argue for
>> fun,
>> >> not blood and would prefer not to engage with a professional unless
>> you
>> >> tie one lobe of your brain behind your back or something.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ...[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
>> >> warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
>> >> resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
>> >> to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
>> >> in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
>> >> time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
>> >> It is its natural manure.
>> >>
>> >> -- Thomas Jefferson
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> So your democratically-elected government gets to serve at the
>> >>> pleasure of a small but violent minority? I understand frustration
>> >>> with graft and waste, but calling for rebellion against a lawfully-
>> >>> seated state for carrying out the will of society?
>> >>>
>> >>> At some point, you realize the value in cooperation, community and
>> >>> shared society. All civilization is based on this premise, that
>> >>> together a people can accomplish what one alone cannot.
>> >>>
>> >>> The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven
>> >>> market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of
>> >>> cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As
>> >>> wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a
>> producer
>> >>> taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a
>> market
>> >>> where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the
>> >>> consumer.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave
>> >>> relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling
>> >>> taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of
>> >>> profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic
>> oligarchy?
>> >>>
>> >>> Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a
>> >>> civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses
>> by
>> >>> right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by
>> >>> economic manipulation.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tell me again why I should kill lawfully-seated ministers of the
>> civil
>> >>> government to preserve the rights of the people exploiting me?
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:36 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I said this in a recent post. I will expand upon it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Taxation, the extortion of money from the citizens, is permissible
>> for
>> >>>> things that are necessary. My list of necessary things includes the
>> >>>> military and things related to the military, infrastructure and
>> >>>> certain
>> >>>> kinds of research. I insist that the involuntary nature of taxation
>> be
>> >>>> explicit and resist the inevitable attempts at expansion of the
>> >>>> things-to-be-paid-for-by-taxation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Of course, as a good Jeffersonian, I believe that from time to time
>> >>>> it is
>> >>>> necessary to shoot the bastards and start over. We're not quite
>> >>>> there yet.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> .
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:19 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> But we (the people on the other side of the argument) are none of
>> us
>> >>>>>> arguing for a complete lack of functional civil society and a
>> >>>>>> Hobbesian
>> >>>>>> all-against-all. Were you under the impression that we were?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't see how you can get from the position that all taxation is
>> >>>>> theft to the position that some governments are legitimate without
>> >>>>> giving up on the first one.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Adam
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Urth Mailing List
>> >>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> >>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Urth Mailing List
>> >>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> >>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Urth Mailing List
>> >>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> >>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 3
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT)
>> >> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <2352.67.142.130.18.1242770756.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>> >>
>> >> Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.
>> >>
>> >> -- PKD (I think).
>> >>
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >>> On May 19, 2009, at 4:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I calls them like I sees them. I prefer to look straight at things
>> and
>> >>>> name them plainly, rather than search for more comforting,
>> euphemistic
>> >>>> ways to express plain reality.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ah, but here is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think
>> >>> "extortion" is any closer to "plain reality" than "dues."
>> >>>
>> >>> I am, in fact, arguing that the reverse is true. But then I believe
>> >>> we probably, at heart, disagree on "plain reality."
>> >>>
>> >>> Adam
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Urth Mailing List
>> >>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> >>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 4
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:06:05 -0500
>> >> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <BD4FACD5AAA943568DAC238C1E3F3911 at eMachinePC>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> >> reply-type=response
>> >>
>> >> Adam, in "The Devil in a Forest", Wolfe presents the issue moral
>> terms.
>> >> If
>> >> I'm benefiting from a service more than my neighbor, and also paying
>> >> less
>> >> for that service than my neighbor, why is that less shameful than
>> just
>> >> going
>> >> to his door and demanding the money?
>> >> Okay. Here are your three options:
>> >>
>> >>>Adam sez:
>> >>>Of course, "fund it to the same degree," and "robbing from the rich
>> to
>> >>>give to the poor," each themselves admit multiple interpretations.
>> >>>One way of "funding it to the same degree" would be to demand a flat
>> >>>amount from each citizen.
>> >>
>> >> This is actually is the most fair way. But, that's asking way too
>> much
>> >> fairness from a society of Fallen human beings. On the other hand, if
>> >> the
>> >> poor don't like it, I suppose they could move to Mogadishu.
>> >>
>> >>>One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,
>> >>>regardless of income. This is usually what Libertarians claim to
>> like.
>> >>>However, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)
>> observation
>> >>>that the marginal value of money decreases the more of it you have.
>> >>
>> >> Marginal value decreases for whom? Not to the people who work to earn
>> >> it.
>> >> You're argument divorces the amount of money made from the people who
>> >> created it. It assumes that a guy making $25K a year is exactly like
>> the
>> >> guy
>> >> making $250K a year except that one happens to make less. It ignores
>> the
>> >> risks the second guy took in capital, time, and effort in order to
>> >> create
>> >> that wealth. It also ignores the fact that the first guy gets far
>> more
>> >> BENEFIT from non-essential government services that the second guy.
>> Some
>> >> would say the differences therefore balance out so that both should
>> pay
>> >> the
>> >> same rate.
>> >>
>> >> The real reason has nothing to do with marginal values of money. It
>> has
>> >> to
>> >> do with practicality. These services are proposed to get a majority
>> of
>> >> the
>> >> voting public to like them. So you give out benefits to a larger
>> number
>> >> and
>> >> have a smaller number pay the freight. No majority will not vote for
>> 95%
>> >> of
>> >> government services if they are seen as fee-for-service. You
>> probably
>> >> wouldn't. David Stackhoff implied that he found the idea increased
>> taxes
>> >> appealing because he didn't think he'd pay the bulk of them (or any
>> of
>> >> them?).
>> >>
>> >>>Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same
>> amount
>> >>> of
>> >>>inconvenience at all levels of income. This is approximately what
>> >>>progressive income taxes attempt to do.
>> >>
>> >> How does a progressive tax provide "the same amount of inconvenience
>> at
>> >> all
>> >> levels of income"? Or do you mean "we'll tax you more if you have
>> more
>> >> and
>> >> we'll do the same to other guy who has more too"? What if we taxed
>> every
>> >> one
>> >> making $35K-$50K at 95% and everyone else at 15%. Is that equally
>> >> logical?
>> >> But we don't just tax based on income either, do we? Because this is
>> >> democracy in action. The law-makers cut breaks for certain voting
>> blocks
>> >> (home-owners, parents, college students, and retirees) while busting
>> >> others
>> >> (cigarette smokers and people who drive for a living).
>> >>
>> >>> "Robbing from the rich to give to the poor," is simply the same
>> >>> argument
>> >>> stood on its head, of course. Does taxation go from "legitimate"
>> to
>> >>> "robbery" at a value derived from the absolute dollar value of the
>> >>> tax,
>> >>> from a percentage of income across all income ranges, or to a
>> degree
>> >>> of
>> >>> inconvenience across all income ranges?
>> >>
>> >> How can I describe a progressive tax? Say five citizens get together
>> to
>> >> fund
>> >> a new well. Hmmm...they could all pay the same amount to dig it, or
>> they
>> >> could all pay the same percentage of their wealth, OR....they could
>> vote
>> >> that Moe here--who also has a lake on his property so he doesn't need
>> >> the
>> >> well---will pay for half of it because, after all, he can "afford
>> it".
>> >> How
>> >> is that different from a two foxes and a hen voting on what to have
>> for
>> >> supper?
>> >>
>> >> J.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 5
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:46 -0400
>> >> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> >> Message-ID: <4A132D76.3090700 at verizon.net>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, Mao and Washington would have found much in common.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Tue, 5/19/09, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> > From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
>> >>> > Mao was a perceptive guy about some
>> >>> > things. Power and how to use it, for
>> >>> > instance. Decent poet also, I'm told.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Not a very nice man, but pretty smart.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > If three people as different as Mao, Washington and Geller
>> >>> > agree about
>> >>> > something, I'd say it's time to sit up and take notice.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > .
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>> > > If Mao said it, it must be true.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> >> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> >> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:06:48 PM
>> >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> >> http://www.avast.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 6
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:08:42 -0400
>> >> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> >> Message-ID: <4A132DEA.20907 at verizon.net>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >>
>> >> Of course you have.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 5
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
>> >> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <4290.67.142.130.18.1242769467.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> > Somalia's economy is not "based on" piracy. It was based on
>> fishing
>> >>> and
>> >>> > herding before global shipping killed all the fish.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> The fishing went away because Somalia, lacking a government, lacks a
>> >> Coast
>> >> Gaurd (see my post about necessary things which may be paid for by
>> >> taxation) and therefore every industrial fishing boat in the world
>> went
>> >> there to glom on their fish.
>> >>
>> >> I think that bits of herding still go on.
>> >>
>> >> Somalia has been a pit for centuries. How did the Italians do running
>> >> it?
>> >> I've been in favor of giving large chunks of Africa back to the
>> colonial
>> >> powers for some time now.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> >> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> >> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:08:44 PM
>> >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> >> http://www.avast.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 7
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:10:38 -0400
>> >> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> >> Message-ID: <4A132E5E.9060401 at verizon.net>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >>
>> >> Thank you for this.
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 7
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:51:17 -0500
>> >> From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <9C6B0298-D857-46D7-80F4-0E74FA6F4720 at gmail.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
>> format=flowed;
>> >> delsp=yes
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >> The substitution of civil government/society with a profit driven
>> >> market removes this universally-agreed as beneficial goal of
>> >> cooperation and replaced it with a unilateral goal of profit. As
>> >> wealth cannot be created ex nihilo, profit must arise from a producer
>> >> taking more than a product is worth. This is only possible on a
>> market
>> >> where supply and demand are manipulated against the interest of the
>> >> consumer.
>> >>
>> >> Thus, the market is merely the latest iteration of the master-slave
>> >> relation. It is the battlefield of class conflict. How does calling
>> >> taxes imposed by a lawful sovereign equal theft, but the creation of
>> >> profit not equal extortion by a self-selected, undemocratic
>> oligarchy?
>> >>
>> >> Individuals and individual liberty are only meaningful insofar as a
>> >> civil legal system ensures they are protected. Authoritarian abuses
>> by
>> >> right and left ignore this. Free markets actively surpress it by
>> >> economic manipulation.
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> >> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> >> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:10:42 PM
>> >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> >> http://www.avast.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 8
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:11:51 -0400
>> >> From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> >> Message-ID: <4A132EA7.2030908 at verizon.net>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >>
>> >> I always try to keep that in mind when I read your posts.
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 8
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
>> >> From: brunians at brunians.org
>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
>> >> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >> Message-ID: <10065.67.142.130.18.1242769896.squirrel at brunians.org>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> > By the way, who is Josh Geller? (When I ask it that way,
>> >>> > the initials are a little disturbing.)
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Late twentieth - early twenty-first century aphorist.
>> >>
>> >> "Never postulate conspiracy when stupidity will explain the known
>> >> facts."
>> >>
>> >> -- Geller's Second Law
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---
>> >> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> >> Virus Database (VPS): 090519-0, 05/19/2009
>> >> Tested on: 5/19/2009 6:11:52 PM
>> >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>> >> http://www.avast.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Urth Mailing List
>> >> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>> >>
>> >> End of Urth Digest, Vol 57, Issue 31
>> >> ************************************
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Urth Mailing List
>> > To post, write urth at urth.net
>> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
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