(urth) The Devil in a Forest

Tue May 19 13:10:20 PDT 2009

I am. I became a Marxist during law school when I studied critical  
legal theory. It's an outgrowth of my abiding interest in German  
Idealism, phenomenology and Continental philosophy in general. In my  
practice as a lawyer (for the State) I apply the principles of  
critical criminology (a la Willem Bonger) to criminal prosecution,  
using the law and the power of collective society to bring about  
social justice. The economics of the situation are central to my  
thinking and my practice.

But, I realize that my viewpoint is not somehow privileged or right by  
fiat. I understand you and your position, and while I don't share it,  
I can't begrudge you your own choices. Politically, this is the beauty  
of democracy.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2009, at 2:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

> So do you just say and titter at each other or do you have some  
> examples
> (you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?
>
> Are you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all  
> gone,
> Gus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.
>
> It's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.
>
> Are you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave  
> Wald
> (http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are
> younger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not  
> actually be
> a socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young
> socialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.
>
> Peace and Freedom!
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>> No, I meant out of touch with reality.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> I have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues
>>> money
>>> or that theft is OK when performed by the government.
>>>
>>> I'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how  
>>> its
>>> mind works (or should that be "how its 'mind' 'works'").
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 'tends to'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out  
>>>>> of
>>>>> touch
>>>>> with reality. Not too often.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in
>>>>> touch
>>>>> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk
>>>>> to one
>>>>> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just  
>>>>> ain't so
>>>>> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is
>>>>> performed by
>>>>> legal process, things like that).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist
>>>>>> party. I
>>>>>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>>>>>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as  
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> "Wolfe
>>>>>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>>>>>> People who
>>>>>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through
>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>> hoops
>>>>>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what
>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>>>>>> length.
>>>>>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda
>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>> Sure,
>>>>>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>>>>>> propagandize for
>>>>>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>>>>>> things as
>>>>>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>>>>>> Rather, he
>>>>>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>>>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>>>>>> inadequate,
>>>>>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>>>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper  
>>>>>>>>>> meaning.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically  
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> inartfully
>>>>>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-
>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>> juices
>>>>>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a  
>>>>>>>> later
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never  
>>>>>>>> _to
>>>>>>>> tell_.
>>>>>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>>>>>> framed in a
>>>>>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to
>>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its
>>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>>>>>> Communist
>>>>>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>>>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> book...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There  
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> be mere
>>>>>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she
>>>>>>>> *is*
>>>>>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also  
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> merely a
>>>>>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non- 
>>>>>>>> rational
>>>>>>>> event is
>>>>>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> J.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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