(urth) Hut in the Jungle

brunians at brunians.org brunians at brunians.org
Wed Mar 18 22:02:39 PDT 2009


No, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this when
Wolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene and I
found that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes future
events affecting the past in certain tricky ways.





.

> Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the same
> issue. But there's something else going on there, as well.
>
> I always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and stories:
> he's saying, "Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!" And the point
> is that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original intent of
> myths so that they are changed and distorted over time.
>
> What happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about
> reflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing that
> who we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.
>
> Both are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an "original"
> cause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms: choices on
> the one hand and myth/story on the other.
>
> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be different
> ways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and future.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM
> Subject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle
>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> wrote:
> ...
>> and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.
>> "Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the
>> spiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?"
>> Is this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary
>> Earth's doing, somehow?
> ...
>> /confused
>> ~witz
>
> I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in _Sword
> of the Lictor_:
>
> 'Dr. Talos whispered, "Look about you—don't you recognize this? It
> is just as he says!"
> "What do you mean?" I whispered in return.
> "The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought
> of it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past
> cast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing
> toward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble
> mankind's dreams."
> "You're mad," I said. "Or joking."
> "Mad?" Baldanders rumbled. "You are mad. You with your fantasies
> of theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us
> barbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes."'
>
> I've always loved that line: "our own shadows race into the past to
> trouble
> mankind's dreams."
>
> The spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the
> present make the results that lie in the future. Which was the
> original? Neither, perhaps.
>
> --
> gwern
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