(urth) Wolfean theologies and the Long Sun

David Stockhoff dstockhoff at verizon.net
Thu Feb 5 14:15:00 PST 2009

These 2 points are especially of interest:

---Orthodox Christianity does not understand the Incarnation as a kind of possession or adoption. 

Makes sense ...

---he is unaware of his Godhead in any meaningful way

even though Severian is a liar, or at least doesn't tell us everything. But I agree that the brief moment in which Severian "is" or "writes as" the Increate is not best taken as a tiny revelation of a huge truth. How exactly it should be taken, I'm not sure. What was Wolfe saying? Simply that Severian's healing powers are the real deal, not derived from Heirogrammatic manipulations?

I wonder about Severian's striving to become good. I am not sure I see much evidence of a *conscious* striving. Mostly, he makes mistakes and tries to avoid repeating them. Which may be enough.


Message: 2
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:19:10 -0800
From: Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Wolfean theologies and the Long Sun
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
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On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:08 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> > Thanks for the links, Stanislaus.
> > That was in fact the distinction that I assumed in reading the books---that
> > there is the Increate, and then there is everything else. None of those
> > other terms are used, of course---merely hinted at, so some posters here
> > have had to use them. Nothing even tells us what entity possessed Severian.
> > One assumes the Increate, but Witz has proposed the New Sun itself.
> >
> > I don't follow that this rule alone keeps Severian from being "a Christ,"
> > since that depends on the degree to which Severian is divine and for that
> > matter whether the OTC is divine. If neither is divine, then there is no
> > forced inequivalence on these grounds alone. If both are---well, that was
> > the reason for my original question.
> >
> >
The Christ of traditional christology is divine as the incarnation of the
Son (one of the three Persons of the Trinity).  Since the Trinity is not a
hierarchy, and since its Persons are co-eternal, Christ is not a created
being; the begetter/begotten language bespeaks a relationship and not a
temporal order (in the Creed's language, Christ is genitum, non factum, and
consubstantialem Patris--begotten, not made, and of the same substance as
the Father).  *Orthodox Christianity does not understand the Incarnation as a
kind of possession or adoption.  It is the unity of two natures (the divine
and the human) in one person, often called the hypostatic union.*

It is difficult for this Christian priest to see how Severian could be a
Christ; "he is unaware of his Godhead in any meaningful way,* and is far from
sinless.  His trajectory is, however, fairly close to that of a Christian
who strives to imitate Christ and grows (oh, how slowly!) in faith and

Having said this, though, I'm sure that other interpretations will offer
much of value.  Wolfe's work is very complex, after all!

-- Matt + Oligarchy : a government resting on a valuation of property, 
in which the rich have power and the poor man is deprived of it. Plato 
(c. 428-348 B.C.), The Republic, bk. VIII, 550-C -------------- next 
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