(urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"GeneWolllfe's Politics

Thu Apr 2 12:12:30 PDT 2009

Is this called for?  Son of Witz asked a sincere question.

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:

> You'll thank me even more after you read them, and also embarrass yourself
> less when you choose to discuss these matters.
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
> > Thanks for your help there, Brunians. priceless.
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]
> >>Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 11:05 AM
> >>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'
> >>Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"GeneWolfe's    Politics
> >>
> >>OK, reread it and read the other three.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>.
> >>
> >>
> >>> I read The Prince a LONG time ago...
> >>>
> >>> ~witz
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: brunians at brunians.org [mailto:brunians at brunians.org]
> >>>>Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:48 AM
> >>>>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'
> >>>>Subject: Re: (urth) "Principlesofgovernaaance"Gene Wolfe's Politics
> >>>>
> >>>>Witz: go read Plato's "Republic", Aristotle's "Politics" and Niccolo
> >>>>Machiavelli's two works "Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus
> >>>>Livius" and "The Prince".
> >>>>
> >>>>This will give you the vocabulary that you currently lack for
> >>>> discussing
> >>>>this kind of thing.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> refresher quote, questions below:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> SHADOW XXXII Five Legs:
> >>>>> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
> >>>>> "Severian. Name for me the seven principles of governance."
> >>>>> It was an effort for me to speak, but I managed (in my dream, if it
> >>>>> was
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> dream)to say, "I do not recall that we have studied such a thing,
> >>>>> Master."
> >>>>> "You were always the most careless of my boys," he told me, and fell
> >>>>> silent.
> >>>>> A foreboding grew on me; I sensed that if I did not reply, some
> >>>>> tragedy
> >>>>> would
> >>>>> occur. At last I began weakly, "Anarchy . . ."
> >>>>> "That is not governance, but the lack of it. I taught you that it
> >>>>> precedes
> >>>>> all governance. Now list the seven sorts."
> >>>>> "Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> other
> >>>>> sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> code
> >>>>> legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only.
> >>>>> Attachment
> >>>>> to a
> >>>>> greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law.
> >>>>> Attachment
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> an
> >>>>> abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies
> >>>>> giving
> >>>>> rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal."
> >>>>> "Tolerable. Of these, which is the earliest form, and which the
> >>>>> highest?"
> >>>>> "The development is in the order given, Master," I said. "But I do
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> recall
> >>>>> that you ever asked before which was highest?'
> >>>>> Master Malrubius leaned forward, his eyes burning brighter than the
> >>>>> coals
> >>>>> of the
> >>>>> fire. "Which is highest, Severian?"
> >>>>> "The last, Master?"
> >>>>> "You mean attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the
> >>>>> body
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other
> >>>>> elements,
> >>>>> largely ideal?"
> >>>>> "Yes, Master."
> >>>>> "Of what kind, Severian, is your own attachment to the Divine
> >>>>> Entity?"
> >>>>> I said nothing. It may have been that I was thinking; but if so, my
> >>>>> mind
> >>>>> was too much filled with sleep to be conscious of its thought.
> >>>>> Instead,
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> became
> >>>>> profoundly aware of my physical surroundings. The sky above my face
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> all
> >>>>> its
> >>>>> grandeur seemed to have been made solely for my benefit, and to be
> >>>>> presented for my inspection now. I lay upon the ground as upon a
> >>>>> woman,
> >>>>> and the very air that surrounded me seemed a thing as admirable as
> >>>>> crystal
> >>>>> and as fluid as wine.
> >>>>> "Answer me, Severian."
> >>>>> "The first, if I have any."
> >>>>> "To the person of the monarch?"
> >>>>> "Yes, because there is no succession."
> >>>>> "The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> his
> >>>>> attachment to you?"
> >>>>> "The first?"
> >>>>> """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ok, is the last one meant to be a joke about our current situation?
> >>>>> Abstraction, largely ideal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> maybe some conservatives can help me out here.
> >>>>> "Attachment to the person of the monarch"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On one hand, I don't understand how "Attachment to" is governance.
> >>>>> Are
> >>>>> the people attached, or is the governance attached?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another question this brings up for me.  This notion of a Divine
> >>>>> Ruler...
> >>>>> You get it in the Grail myths, and I suppose in the Jesus Myth, this
> >>>>> idea
> >>>>> of bringing back the Divine King. I'm not sure if that's right, but
> >>>>> it's
> >>>>> something that seems to come up in various traditions.  Anyway, While
> >>>>> anyone could sort of get behind letting God's Vicar rule, if it could
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> proven. Yet we've had plenty of crappy rulers claiming God's mandate.
> >>>>> anyway, How can this idea of a Monarch that is the best system jibe
> >>>>> with
> >>>>> reality lacking an unambiguous 'seal of approval' from God?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let me rephrase?  This seems like a sort of religious right position
> >>>>> (maybe I'm totally wrong)  So, would anyone toss away democracy in
> >>>>> favor
> >>>>> of a monarch? How can this notion not be "largely ideal"  when it
> >>>>> hinges
> >>>>> upon the character of a single person?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not sure if I'm making this clear. I'm trying to understand how
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> can be considered the highest state of governance in a practical,
> >>>>> non-ideal world.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> just asking...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ~Witz
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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