(urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)

Fri Nov 21 13:00:20 PST 2008

Nice points David.

I'll reiterate that I don't think any connection to the historical Jesus is necessary.  I'm certainly not talking about Jesus. I'm talking about the energy that Jesus embodied.

though I do think this notion of looking backwards that Jordon and David bring up is good food for though.  It's very much like when Talos gives you a big elbo in the ribs and points out all the Frankenstein trappings, and says, elusively, that Frankenstein is inspired by this future event.

I think it absolutely supports your notions of backshadowing.

I should really try to hammer home that this Severian as Christ thing shouldn't be looked at too literally. Wolfe is playing with cosmology here, but this is not Divine Revelations (which the Bible is purported to be).  We can allow for some ill fits in a metaphor made by one MAN's mind when matched to the "Word of God".  I'd say don't get hung up on disproving it so much, because it offers a lot of meat to chew on when contemplating the story.

>I think what's being undersold here is the significance of Wolfe's own
>Catholicism.  I think it's pretty unlikely that we're meant to
>understand Severian literally Jesus.
>In fact, I submit that the differences between Severian's behavior and
>that of Christ are likely significant to the ideas Wolfe wants to
>convey.
>
>On 11/21/08, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Just to stir the pot again---if Severian IS Apu Punchau, is there any reason
>> why he can't BE Christ? Do we not live in the same universe as Severian?
>> Therefore, wouldn't the Conciliator "echo" back to the beginning of time and
>> tickle Jesus with his noodly appendage?
>>
>> I find it fitting that traditional Catholic myth (if I can say that)
>> actually places the Second Coming at the center of its cosmology, and the
>> First Coming is just a foreshadowing of the Second---though it does not
>> always seem that way. (Crudely put.) Therefore, it follows that what is
>> really important about the story in BotNS (the plot, I guess) is not any
>> Crucifixion, but the Future Return and Reconciliation (whatever that's
>> called; it's been years since grad school). So Severian's "conversion" to
>> the time-transcendent Conciliator (the godhead) should in fact have ripple
>> effects back to the beginning of this universe, and there could be any
>> number of Messiahs whose past existence is thus rendered rather beside the
>> point. And so it's irrelevant whether Severian is Christ, just as it's
>> meaningless to ask if Frodo is Christ (he is, but is he a Christ for the
>> Third Age of Middle-Earth or a Christ for the 1940s of Earth?).
>>
>> In a sense, this novel is extraordinarily arrogant for what it tries to do.
>> In others, of course, it is almost literally "religious."
>>
>> I also want to comment in this context that if I were to argue that Wolfe's
>> approach is to subvert pagan beliefs with Christian ones, I would begin with
>> Latro. Wolfe is extremely well-read about the Greeks and really seems to
>> understand their thinking, which is almost alien to us (they were
>> unconcerned by torture, for example). And there may be no richer vein for
>> this kind of approach than the world that early Christians found themselves
>> in---one that was primarily Greek in thought, but also superficially Roman
>> and what used to be called "oriental," (e.g., cults in which men unman
>> themselves to reach the godhead) and in which being Christian was not just a
>> routine matter of attending church and paying taxes.
>>
>> From there I would move on to the well-trod ground of the Christian
>> propagandists in pagan/medieval Europe (Wizard Knight, Castleview), then
>> Christ on other planets, Christ in other universes, Christ in the far
>> future, etc.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:10:48 +0000
>> > From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>> > Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
>> > To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> > Message-ID: <W9404019816247571227294648 at webmail25>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > yup.
>> > it's all Jordon's fault.
>> > nice to see you poke your lurking head out.
>> > (tomorrow we'll have our Monomachy shirts)
>> > (anyone in SF, Saturday night, Hotel Utah, Orange Tulip Conspiracy is
>> playing. Good instrumental band. they're selling tee shirts with my
>> Monomachy illustrations.
>> http://www.myspace.com/orangetulipconspiracy   )
>> >
>> > I'm with you in that I don't find the manipulations and free will
>> incompatible.  It's an old dilemma, but it's clear to me that God puts
>> things in our paths (or puts us on the path) and it's up to us to make our
>> choices.
>> >
>> > I do have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the time loops.
>> > I suppose you're right about Severian being the Conciliator all the time,
>> just as he is Apu Punchau.  As I've mentioned, the mechanics aren't that
>> important to me. what is important is that his life is a loop (which he
>> outright says at one point of speculation).  Which is why I'm CONVINCED that
>> the Amphisbaena is one of the most central symbols in the work.  Interesting
>> that it's not simply an Uroboros eating it's tail, but a two headed serpent
>> eating it's own head. This really speaks to the loopy nature of time within
>> this cosmology better than a easy linear cycle of death and resurrection.
>> >
>> > speaking of strange loops, I'm so glad you recommended these books to me.
>> I finished Urth and started Shadow again the same day. I'm back to the
>> beginning of Urth again.  Really some of the best fiction I've ever sunk my
>> teeth into.  Thanks again.
>> >
>> > ~SonOfWitz
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ---
>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>> Virus Database (VPS): 081121-0, 11/21/2008
>> Tested on: 11/21/2008 3:18:30 PM
>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2008 ALWIL Software.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Urth Mailing List
>To post, write urth at urth.net
>Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>