(urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)

[David Stockhoff]

Just to stir the pot again---if Severian IS Apu Punchau, is there any 
reason why he can't BE Christ? Do we not live in the same universe as 
Severian? Therefore, wouldn't the Conciliator "echo" back to the 
beginning of time and tickle Jesus with his noodly appendage?

I find it fitting that traditional Catholic myth (if I can say that) 
actually places the Second Coming at the center of its cosmology, and 
the First Coming is just a foreshadowing of the Second---though it does 
not always seem that way. (Crudely put.) Therefore, it follows that what 
is really important about the story in BotNS (the plot, I guess) is not 
any Crucifixion, but the Future Return and Reconciliation (whatever 
that's called; it's been years since grad school). So Severian's 
"conversion" to the time-transcendent Conciliator (the godhead) should 
in fact have ripple effects back to the beginning of this universe, and 
there could be any number of Messiahs whose past existence is thus 
rendered rather beside the point. And so it's irrelevant whether 
Severian is Christ, just as it's meaningless to ask if Frodo is Christ 
(he is, but is he a Christ for the Third Age of Middle-Earth or a Christ 
for the 1940s of Earth?).

In a sense, this novel is extraordinarily arrogant for what it tries to 
do. In others, of course, it is almost literally "religious."

I also want to comment in this context that if I were to argue that 
Wolfe's approach is to subvert pagan beliefs with Christian ones, I 
would begin with Latro. Wolfe is extremely well-read about the Greeks 
and really seems to understand their thinking, which is almost alien to 
us (they were unconcerned by torture, for example). And there may be no 
richer vein for this kind of approach than the world that early 
Christians found themselves in---one that was primarily Greek in 
thought, but also superficially Roman and what used to be called 
"oriental," (e.g., cults in which men unman themselves to reach the 
godhead) and in which being Christian was not just a routine matter of 
attending church and paying taxes.

 From there I would move on to the well-trod ground of the Christian 
propagandists in pagan/medieval Europe (Wizard Knight, Castleview), then 
Christ on other planets, Christ in other universes, Christ in the far 
future, etc.

David


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:10:48 +0000
> From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <W9404019816247571227294648 at webmail25>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> yup.
> it's all Jordon's fault.
> nice to see you poke your lurking head out.
> (tomorrow we'll have our Monomachy shirts)
> (anyone in SF, Saturday night, Hotel Utah, Orange Tulip Conspiracy is playing. Good instrumental band. they're selling tee shirts with my Monomachy illustrations.  http://www.myspace.com/orangetulipconspiracy   )
>
> I'm with you in that I don't find the manipulations and free will incompatible.  It's an old dilemma, but it's clear to me that God puts things in our paths (or puts us on the path) and it's up to us to make our choices.
>
> I do have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the time loops.
> I suppose you're right about Severian being the Conciliator all the time, just as he is Apu Punchau.  As I've mentioned, the mechanics aren't that important to me. what is important is that his life is a loop (which he outright says at one point of speculation).  Which is why I'm CONVINCED that the Amphisbaena is one of the most central symbols in the work.  Interesting that it's not simply an Uroboros eating it's tail, but a two headed serpent eating it's own head. This really speaks to the loopy nature of time within this cosmology better than a easy linear cycle of death and resurrection.
>
> speaking of strange loops, I'm so glad you recommended these books to me. I finished Urth and started Shadow again the same day. I'm back to the beginning of Urth again.  Really some of the best fiction I've ever sunk my teeth into.  Thanks again.
>
> ~SonOfWitz
>
>   
>


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