(urth) Shadow, Chapter X

[Son of Witz]

>> I'm using the word in the sense of an Instance in the physical world.
>> IF the Logos manifests as a man, that is an instance of that energy, a hypostasis of that energy into flesh.  So, yes, Jesus is a Hypostasis of the Logos.
>>
>This is subtle.  I'm not sure if I agree with you or disagree with
>you.  I think that it's likely that Wolfe, who once called Severian
>"an aspect of the Increate," is thinking of instantiation, and has
>Severian talk to the Hierodules in Urth about it for that reason.
>
>But the Logos, I think, is something unlike a song--its instantiation
>is not identical to itself.  I like my use of the painting--a painting
>partakes of the nature of its subject, but is not its subject.
>

Ok. well I don't think he's exactly identical.
In a sense, Jesus is not a perfect instance, or why would he be tempted or have the risk of failure. The LOGOS is eternal.

>> B) many Christians would also find the notion of an Exucutioner Christ to be beyond the pale of heresy and think this book was some sort of evil perversion.
>>
>
>I agree.  I think, actually, that that's one of the more beautiful and
>Christian notions of the book--Severian is very much the Stone That
>Was Rejected.

yes, and Christ came to bring the sword, no?  The sword that cuts and the sword that heals.  I find this whole aspect of the book INCREDIBLY beautiful.

>> But understand, when I say Christ or the Logos, I'm not necessarily talking about Jesus.  I don't even believe in Jesus, yet I'm convinced that the LOGOS is very real. The pope recently reminded the world that Christ IS the Logos.
>> It seems people have a hard time separating the worldly instance (Jesus) from the Eternal Essence (LOGOS)
>>
>
>The end of the Divine Comedy has a wonderful image that touches on
>sort of the flipside of the Christian miracle--the possibility that as
>God became Man, Man somehow became a part of God.  It's heretical to
>say that God can change, of course, so Dante doesn't say it--he dances
>around the idea, though.


One day I'll get out of the Inferno


>> And if he's not an analogue Christ, Why is he carrying a cross around for 3 1/2 books?  No one has addressed the ideas about this that I posted in October.
>> http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-October/010121.html
>>
>> ~sonofwitz
>
>Well, I'll have to look at that posting more closely, but Christ
>Himself tells his followers that they all must take up the cross.
>Severian carrying the cross makes him a "Christian" figure.
>
>It's not unlike Tolkien's work, really. Frodo is clearly a "Christ
>figure" in a limited sense--he carries the Ring, which is more or less
>the Cross, his three woundings correspond with Christ's wounds or
>three falls, he makes a great sacrifice, he too is the Stone the Was
>Rejected, etc.  But no one thinks that Frodo is meant to BE Christ in
>the sense that Aslan is meant to be Christ.  I think Severian is much
>more like Frodo than Aslan.
>

Sure. I don't really disagree. We're talking about metaphors and symbols here.
Though I would say that Frodo doesn't have a SUN out in space. Frodo doesn't fulfill an ancient prophesy of renewal.  As I see it, Christ is all about Death and Resurrection.  I sensed Sev was the Conciliator all along, but I didn't really get it until Urth. then I looked at Chapter 1 of Shadow. "Death and Resurrection"  Great stuff.