(urth) re silk is caldo

[Chris]

Generally speaking it's hard to interpret Severian's writing on politics because it could be one or more of several different things.

For one thing, it is difficult to forget that Severian is writing this account *as* the Autarch. He's not disinterested, and may well be trying to sermonize.

Secondly, the lesson being repeated is one that is part of the education of a Torturer. Recall the mystery of their Guild. Part of the educational process has to be to prepare the student to accept the ideal of obedience - in this case, to the Autarch - that makes it possible to do that job and live with yourself. (Gurloes is a good example of what happens when things start to come apart at the seams in that regard).

And another, more abstract point, that occurs to me is that Severian is himself a body politic. This aspect was minimized in an earlier post but I don't think it's separable from the story as a whole. Severian is a self-ruled and self-ruling man. I cannot help but think a large part of the purpose of that conversation had everything to do with this point.

Also: the comparison of India's caste system to Plato is an unfortunate one, and I think very unkind to Plato (or perhaps very optimistic about the caste system). Both have a hierarchy but the purpose is strikingly different. Not to mention the type of stratification. For Plato this occurs via differences in the individual's capabilities, and circumstances for each are adjusted according to those abilities. In the traditional caste system your place in life is determined by the circumstances of your birth, and no amount of natural ability can change them.

Not to say there's nothing objectionable about Plato's republic. But the motivations are quite different.

-- 
"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set." -- Lin Yutang



> From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
> To: urth at lists.urth.net
> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:45:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: (urth) re silk is caldo
> 
> 
> >I'm responding to this at the risk of taking the list off the topic of Wolfe, but I think I can bring it back. 
> 
> That's why this list might be better if it grew into a message board where topics are compartmentalized. but even in those places threads cross and reality intrudes.
> 
> I have to agree about the Tyranny of the masses. I've rarely held the popular view of things.  However, just about all of our old myths pine for some Golden Age. Was it ever present. from The Grail myths to the bible, we're always looking for some sort of divinely principled ruler.  The prevalance of this myth into antiquity is actually sort of depressing.
> 
> more below:
> 
> >I think it is close to what Severian expounds.  I don't really want to start a riot, but my position on voting is that there are specialized members in every society who are qualified for some tasks but should not be involved in every one.  I do not feel that your average trapeze artist or even banker has any right to have input into government - but they can certainly show you how the trapeze works or how to apply for a loan. Similarly I do not want the input of an unconvicted pimp to have equal sway with my words - and since my attitudes are in the minority any vote I make will be peeing into the ocean.  Even if "Every little bit helps" (was that a Wolfe joke for Jonas?).  
> >
> >When your ideas are doomed to the minority and you don't believe the people  should have the right to dictate their governance there is little point.
> >
> >I don't think it is an ignorant attitude, though I will accept that it is elitist and does not accept the principal "all men are created equal" - which would get me in some trouble unless I fall back on examples like the societal worth of a Ted Bundy versus a mother Theresa, which are trite and overdone examples.
> 
> 
> the fact is, all men are NOT created equal.  Though they have equal RIGHTS, or at least they should have.  This argument is why folks like Plato wanted rule by a small wise elite, and why india has a caste system (no?). 
> 
> 
> While I don't really believe the hype about Obama, the one thing I really like about him is his insistence upon listening to opposing views. Really, there will be no common ground unless we can sit down together and listen and discus without throwing insults around.   I've read reports about when McCain and Kerry went to "close up" (cover up) the remaining POW MIA issues, this wife of a POW brought up some evidence they ignored. just asking the question. McCain got red faced and insultive, brought the woman to tears, ignored her questions, shouted "How dare you question my patriotism" and stormed out of the room.  It's hardly a way to come to a good solution.
> 
> If we could just deal with each others ideas without freaking out about it, it would be a better world, and this is a KEY value I look for in a leader. Fuck this "You're with us or against us" bullshit.  We're here together.
> 
> A second quality, which should be applauded, is his insistence on personal responsibility to both the lower realms (NEEDS) and the higher callings (CIVIC or SPIRITUAL)
> 
> I won't talk about him here anymore though.
> 
> I'll say, it is very interesting to come in here and talk with you all. some of you are perhaps nutjobs like me, and some of you are devout catholic conservatives, unlike me.  I find it fascinating. I spent most of my life being VERY anti-religion, but I've gotten MUCH more from speaking with religious folk than I have from atheists and suchlike.  One of the most important things I've learned is NOT to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to Religion (as well as politics). The Bathwater DOES need some changing though.
> 
> Much Love,
> ~Witz
> 
> 
> 
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