(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

[John Watkins]

I don't think it means anything like the idea that everything is part of
God's plan and thus morality is meaningless.  I think it means something
much more mundane--that, as Severian himself notes "time turns our lies into
truths."  In an even less poetic phrasing, habituation works--we become the
thing we discipline ourself to feign being because that's how character is
shaped.

When the lie in question is that we speak for the divine, habituation and
the Increate together act to annex our actions.  For Patera Quetzal, a
bloodsucking alien pretending to be a kindly old priest, this meant that he
called off the human sacrifices and generally operated as a strong and
faithful leader for his flock.  For Kypris, and arguably even for Pas, it
means that the sham religion of the Whorl is still operating to some degree
to further the Outsider's ends.

I'm suggesting that a similar explanation could be at work behind the plans
of the Hierogrammates, although in a more opaque manner.  I am not
suggesting that there is no basis for judging the actions of the
Hierogrammates--their part in a divine plan could be necessary but
completely unwitting.


On 7/14/08, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote:

> If I recall correctly, someone else recently tried this as an explanation.
> The problem with it is that if everyone is part of God's Plan, then the
> concept of "morality" as we know it doesn't exist and no actions can be
> judged - a preposterous conclusion.
> However, if you would like to make the case that only some, and not others,
> are doing God's will, then you'll have to prove why that is so.
>
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:28 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps we're looking for the evidence in the wrong place.  The strongest
>> evidence that the Hierogrammates are doing the will of the Increate is that
>> the Outsider tells Silk that "When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in
>> some ways becoming like a god."
>>
>> The Hierogrammates certainly pose as angelic beings.  So even if all the
>> points made about the Hierogrammates being evil are correct, and even if
>> their agenda is indistinguishable from that of Maitre and Mr. Million, they
>> *can not help *in some way doing the Increate's will.  This could mean
>> that Severian's brining the New Sun is not ultimately a Very Bad Thing after
>> all.
>>
>> Of course, I have no idea how this would work, or what the Increate's
>> purpose would be, unless it really is bringing the Green Man future.
>>
>> On 7/14/08, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> True, I'm curious about that myself!  It seems evidence tying them to the
>>> Increate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it,
>>> though perhaps somewhat unusually ("Urth's agonies will be offered to the
>>> Increate" or something to that effect).
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 "Roy C. Lackey"
>>>> <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving
>>>> >agenda. He
>>>> >shows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,
>>>> >and their
>>>> >intentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve
>>>>
>>>> >their
>>>> >desired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all
>>>> >here, but it
>>>> >is right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had
>>>> >with Apheta
>>>> >immediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve
>>>> >their
>>>> >goals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what
>>>>
>>>> >the
>>>> >Hieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to
>>>> >Gunnie then,
>>>> >"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us
>>>>
>>>> >through
>>>> >the pain we brought them through."
>>>> >
>>>> >If the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning
>>>> >the
>>>> >Hierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),
>>>> >then the
>>>> >Hierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and
>>>> >will start
>>>> >the whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions
>>>> >of
>>>> >self-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach
>>>>
>>>> >of any
>>>> >man.
>>>> >
>>>> >One's having power that is greater than another does not define
>>>> >morality.
>>>>
>>>> Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the
>>>> Hierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't
>>>> created directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to
>>>> man apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is
>>>> entirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so
>>>> on ...
>>>>
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