(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

Thu Jul 10 20:50:51 PDT 2008

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I suppose I could make myself clearer. Ever a problem.
>>
>> The reason why human concepts of morality might not apply to the Hieros
>> goes back to my residual Kantianism.  For humans, our experience of the
>> world is always subject the conditions for sensibility, space and time.
>> That is, we _need_ time to be linear and run one way, or else our way of
>> representing the world goes to bunk.  But how does that apply to
>> Hierodules/-grammates? We know that they are not similarly bound by the
>> linear flow of time as humans are. Thus, the human moral fear of death, and
>> our value judgment of death as bad are because death represents the end, or
>> cessation of life.  But for beings moving the opposite direction (Barbatus,
>> etc.) or those capable of moving in any direction through the Atrium or
>> Madregot might have a different feeling about death.  So while we regard the
>> putative murder of the Urthlings as an immoral act, to them it might be the
>> height of morality because it paves the way for rebirth, or that worldly
>> death is not something they need fear.
>>
>> I forget who has it, but there is a contemporary writer who has a similar
>> response to the problem of evil.  He takes up the recent tsunami as evidence
>> that perhaps, in God's view, the death of people is not something to be
>> lamented, if we assume a beneficial afterlife for good people. I'm not
>> saying I buy it, mind you (in fact, I don't believe in gods of any sort) but
>> the argument is, I think, defensible.
>>
>>
>
> I mentioned in my response to Jeff why I don't think it's proper, or at
> least fun, to consider moral relativism.  If nothing else, it's more fun to
> consider a problem than to dismiss it.  The destruction of Urth is a
> momentous occasion and the climax of chiliads of extensive planning, and I
> think that dismissing it as just something to get done gives it too short
> shrift.
>
> And as for Sev being a moral agent, well, we _all_ are moral agents,
>> whether we're conscious of our status as such. And I don't necessarily read
>> Severian's lack of introspection or analysis of his own actions as being an
>> inherent blindness in his person, but from the tone he takes he seems to be
>> attempting to give as objective a history as he can, not a memoir-ish
>> analysis of his own life.
>>
>>
>
> It's I suppose a consistent viewpoint that the Hierogrammates are good guys
> and Severian's following them unquestioningly is harmless.  Thus, for
> example , when instead of taking the opportunity to question Apheta about
> what's actually going on he just does what he always does to all women he
> ever meets, it can be seen as a mostly harmless vice (though perhaps not
> quite worthy of the EPITOME OF HUMANITY).  "Consistent" is about the highest
> praise I can give to this sort of interpretation though.  However while
> Severian's character flaws might be surprising in his position as ambassador
> of a supposedly reformed humanity, they are certainly very fitting in an
> alternative position of puppet.  It's just a matter of which perspective one
> finds more compelling.
>

Eh, I suppose I got a little carried away there.  A redaction is in order:
Of the women he's met, Severian does not, in fact, do Agia, Tzadkiel, or
Madame Prefect that runs Matachin Tower in the Age of the Monarch.  I would
attribute these omissions to lack of opportunity/time.

> Lane
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think we're straying too far afield here.
>>>
>>>  On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now we've strayed into my territory (philosophy!).
>>>>
>>>> I think that the analysis given of the Hierogrammates is too one-sided,
>>>> ethically.  We're assuming that morality works on a broadly utilitarian
>>>> basis:  e.g., it is somehow better to save the population of Urth than let
>>>> it pass away.
>>>
>>>
>>> Wha?!  Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an
>>> inherently utilitarian statement but a very general one.  It doesn't assume
>>> much about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value on life.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Rather, if we look at the moral actions internally, we ask whether it is
>>>> morally right for Severian to bring the New Sun, not on the basis of what
>>>> effects it might have, but whether that act was right in and of itself.
>>>>  Analogizing to Biblical morality, look at the use of Noah's Flood to wash
>>>> away what passed for a degenerate Earth/Urth.  I'm no Catholic, so I don't
>>>> know if there is a standard dogmatic theodicy that is accepted in response
>>>> to the problem of evil, but I think that the majority-Christian view on that
>>>> argument is the "God has his reasons" theodicy.  In other words, it is
>>>> unquestionable and axiomatic that God does only good things.  So sending the
>>>> Flood (make of that what you will) is a good act.  Even if we cannot
>>>> understand how it is good, if God has his reasons for it, they may be beyond
>>>> what we can understand, being finite mortals and all
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that one of the primary findings from the tetralogy is that
>>> Severian doesn't understand much of anything.  It's not useful to theorize
>>> about him as a conscious, moral agent.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Then again, the Hieros don't suffer from God's disability in this case,
>>>> as it were.  They're not perfect beings, so they don't have to always act
>>>> perfectly good.  They may see it necessary to do evil in order to do some
>>>> greater good, so they may accept that Severian must destroy Urth to get to
>>>> Ushas. After all, this is eschatology and genesis we're talking about here,
>>>> death and rebirth.  And perhaps we're guilty of imposing a mortal,
>>>> linear-time-bound morality upon beings that are not so bound.  Maybe we view
>>>> death and destruction as "bad" in and of themselves, when really they're
>>>> just a necessary step along the way to birth/rebirth?
>>>>
>>>> Lane
>>>>
>>>
>>> Like I said in the opening of this, it's only a useful exercise if you
>>> assume that morality is in some way universal.  If the Hierogrammates
>>> operate on another moral level (and I see little reason to assume this -
>>> they are just advanced aliens), we can just give up and go home.  However,
>>> that would sound a little like the proposed solutions to the Problem of
>>> Evil.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 10, 2008, at 2:39 PM, b sharp wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Paul B posts:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can
>>>>>> save
>>>>>> the population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to.  This makes any
>>>>>> outcome
>>>>>> morally suspect according to most ethical frameworks.  As long as 1.)
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> 2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of
>>>>>> them, that
>>>>>> "ethics" is not a strictly human concept.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,
>>>>> that being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend
>>>>> of a God
>>>>> who has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but
>>>>> chooses not
>>>>> to.  Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene
>>>>> Wolfe feels
>>>>> the Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an
>>>>> atheist (or both).
>>>>> I don't think either is true.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by
>>>>> the classic problem
>>>>> of an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect
>>>>> the Hierogrammates
>>>>> and their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe
>>>>> to reconcile the
>>>>> contradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain
>>>>> religion).
>>>>>
>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Paul Borochin
> PhD student, Fuqua School
>

-- 
Paul Borochin
PhD student, Fuqua School
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