(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

brunians at brunians.org brunians at brunians.org
Sun Jul 20 17:08:28 PDT 2008 

You don't have to know the details, you just have to know that everything
is OK. Since nothing happens save by the will of God, everything that
happens is OK.


It works for me.




.


> You know what, I'll elaborate on that.
>
> When God kills people off in Revelations, He knows, with certainty,
> what's awaiting them in the afterlife.  Death is a lot less
> significant from the perspective of a being that has direct knowledge
> and experience of life after death.  Additionally, God is the creator
> of life--He is sovereign over what He gives.  As Shakespeare says,
> "Every man owes God a death."
>
> There's no evidence in the New Sun books that Tzadkiel et al. know or
> particularly care about the afterlife of humans, any more than there
> is evidence that they're in touch with the Increate.  Again, what's
> the real difference between the Hierogrammates and the Shrike?  Both
> are obviously more powerful than humans, both exhibit control over
> time, both have religions devoted to or inspired by them, and both are
> the creations of Roman Catholic science fiction writers.  As far as I
> can tell, they have equal claim to being angelic beings.
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:47 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I didn't mean to be snarky.  I'm simply saying that bringing about the
>> end of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a
>> breeding program.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does,
>>> at
>>> least according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in
>>> Revelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?
>>>
>>> That's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left
>>> behind. I
>>> find it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are
>>> saying without evidence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
>>>> Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>> Have you read Revelations?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is
>>>>>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
>>>>>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
>>>>>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>>>>>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>>>>>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it
>>>>>> does.
>>>>>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.  I
>>>>>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to
>>>>>> genocide
>>>>>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>>>>>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>>>>>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to
>>>>>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
>>>>>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)
>>>>>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
>>>>>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended
>>>>>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and
>>>>>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>>>>>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>>>>>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts
>>>>>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
>>>>>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
>>>>>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
>>>>>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are "a
>>>>>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
>>>>>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
>>>>>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
>>>>>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim to
>>>>>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> they concede that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>>>>>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>>>>>> 3)  They are not eternal
>>>>>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>>>>>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious
>>>>>> agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>>>>>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>>>>>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that
>>>>>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book
>>>>>> butchering
>>>>>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new theory.
>>>>>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>>>>>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key
>>>>>>> omissions,
>>>>>>> I sense it is
>>>>>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact
>>>>>>> finding
>>>>>>> or insight raising
>>>>>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>>>>>>> mentioned. Could
>>>>>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that
>>>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>> is also
>>>>>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that
>>>>>>> Tzadkiel
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> the one
>>>>>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that
>>>>>>> Venant
>>>>>>> is killed I think),
>>>>>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> Zophiel) who
>>>>>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters
>>>>>>> battle."
>>>>>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God
>>>>>>> without angelic help
>>>>>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> work of angels.
>>>>>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you
>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>> that the Biblical God
>>>>>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't see how an
>>>>>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> flood of one of many
>>>>>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now
>>>>>>> rephrased)
>>>>>>> question: How are
>>>>>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>>>>>>> immoral killing of human
>>>>>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice
>>>>>>> genocide,
>>>>>>> territorial warfare and
>>>>>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to
>>>>>>> impregnate one's
>>>>>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>>>>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you
>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>> thinking that Gene
>>>>>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>>>>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>>>>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>>>>>> contaminated by these evil
>>>>>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something
>>>>>>> different-
>>>>>>> better and more pure?
>>>>>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea
>>>>>>> anyway though not particularly
>>>>>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian
>>>>>>> interpretation:
>>>>>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>>>>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>>>>>> continued on through to the present
>>>>>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> awful it appears and we
>>>>>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for
>>>>>>> humanity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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