(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?

Sun Jul 20 16:47:34 PDT 2008

I didn't mean to be snarky.  I'm simply saying that bringing about the
end of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a
breeding program.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
> No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at
> least according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in
> Revelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?
>
> That's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind. I
> find it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are
> saying without evidence.
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>> Yes.  Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a
>> Catholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> Have you read Revelations?
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith.  You seem
>>>> to believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is
>>>> some kind of "secular humanist."  I can assure you that this is far
>>>> from the truth.  My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile
>>>> what I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that
>>>> Severian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what
>>>> I see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false
>>>> angels enacting a program of genocide.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.
>>>> It refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice.  The fact
>>>> that Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an
>>>> angel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.  I
>>>> don't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide
>>>> in any moral system I can think of.
>>>>
>>>> Your point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical
>>>> angels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does
>>>> work independently of them.  The Hierogrammates, however, most
>>>> certainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to
>>>> what the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means.  My point about
>>>> the Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)
>>>> and other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of
>>>> morality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended
>>>> to intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and
>>>> may only guess at His will.  The Biblical angels have no such
>>>> restriction.--another point that militates against reading the
>>>> Hierogrammates as literal angels.
>>>>
>>>> If you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts
>>>> of warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to
>>>> understand  Judeo-Christian ethics.  Likewise, the notion that the
>>>> Hebrews are "a race contaminated" in absolutely antithetical to the
>>>> contemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are "a
>>>> race contaminated" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is
>>>> a notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.  The
>>>> Gnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil
>>>> demiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.
>>>> This doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of
>>>> course, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is
>>>> a worthy one.  Pas certainly takes that role.
>>>>
>>>> Here's another way to put my point.  When a group of beings claim to
>>>> be angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them?  Especially when
>>>> they concede that:
>>>>
>>>> 1)  They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans
>>>> 2)  They are not in direct contact with God
>>>> 3)  They are not eternal
>>>> 4)  They appear to exercise free will
>>>> 5)  They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to
>>>> angels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the
>>>> topic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious
>>>> agenda.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name
>>>> ending in "-el" it would be just as good a match for an angel as
>>>> Tzadkiel.  And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that
>>>> fact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering
>>>> people isn't a sign that he's not an angel.  I like this new theory.
>>>> It puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light.  The Shrike
>>>> Church is ctually doing the will of God.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Watkins:
>>>>>
>>>>> a nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key
>>>>> omissions,
>>>>> I sense it is
>>>>> a rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact
>>>>> finding
>>>>> or insight raising
>>>>> endeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of
>>>>> the
>>>>> mainstream
>>>>> of Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you
>>>>> mentioned. Could
>>>>> be the basis for further discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that
>>>>> he/she
>>>>> is also
>>>>> considered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel
>>>>> was
>>>>> the one
>>>>> to intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that
>>>>> Venant
>>>>> is killed I think),
>>>>> while omitting that "Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along
>>>>> with
>>>>> Zophiel) who
>>>>> follow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle."
>>>>> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel
>>>>>
>>>>> In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God
>>>>> without angelic help
>>>>> while ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the
>>>>> specific
>>>>> work of angels.
>>>>> I'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting
>>>>> that the Biblical God
>>>>> and angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I
>>>>> don't see how an
>>>>> invincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the
>>>>> flood of one of many
>>>>> human worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both
>>>>> cases.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)
>>>>> question: How are
>>>>> Hierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their
>>>>> immoral killing of human
>>>>> beings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,
>>>>> territorial warfare and
>>>>> individual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to
>>>>> impregnate one's
>>>>> sister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?
>>>>>
>>>>> You've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can
>>>>> think
>>>>> that Gene Wolfe is a
>>>>> secular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you
>>>>> perhaps
>>>>> thinking that Gene
>>>>> Wolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and
>>>>> Cabalistic God and angels
>>>>> to be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race
>>>>> contaminated by these evil
>>>>> aliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-
>>>>> better and more pure?
>>>>> I don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea
>>>>> anyway though not particularly
>>>>> flattering to Mr. Wolfe.
>>>>>
>>>>> A much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:
>>>>> that Gene Wolfe sees that
>>>>> genocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has
>>>>> continued on through to the present
>>>>> day and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how
>>>>> awful it appears and we
>>>>> must have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.
>>>>>
>>>>> -bsharp
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
>>>>> http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>