(urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian Ad Nauseum

Wed Dec 3 14:34:06 PST 2008

Aquinas can hardly be blamed for not being entirely sure where he
begins and ends.  There was an awful lot of him.

On 12/3/08, brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
> > Yes, my basic rundown was meant as that.
>
> > Heck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end.
>
> So did Aquinas, though not necessrily more at the end than the beginning
> or middle....
>
>
>
> .
>
> > On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'll explicate and clarify this later.  What we're really talking about
> >> with
> >> Aristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with
> >> Plato's
> >> ideas about universality.  I'm just at work and can't write it out at
> >> the
> >> moment.
> >>
> >> Lane
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Yes, "form" and "anima" mean the same thing here (although not always,
> >> > because "anima" will sometimes mean "breath" or "soul" when "form"
> >> > will not.)
> >> >
> >> > Basic Aristotelian metaphysics:  entity = form + matter.
> >> >
> >> > This is easiest to understand via artifacts.  A blacksmith imagines
> >> > the form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the
> >> > sword.  The "form," existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes
> >> > instantiated in the matter of the steel.  But the substance, the thing
> >> > itself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the
> >> > blacksmith, but their union in the sword.
> >> >
> >> > For a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for
> >> > humans, you might call it the mind or the soul.  The matter is the
> >> > body.  Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same "form" instantiated, or
> >> > "written," in different matters.  Nevertheless they are distinct
> >> > entities.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 12/3/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >-----Original Message-----
> >> > > >From: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]
> >> > > >Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM
> >> > > >To: 'The Urth Mailing List'
> >> > > >Subject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III,
> >> Severian
> >> Ad Nauseum
> >> > > >
> >> > > >On 12/3/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
> >> > > >> from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really
> >> one
> >> Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb.  This is why there
> >> is
> >> the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau.  The Two bodies can't be in the
> >> same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to
> >> speak).
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Book V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity.
> >> By
> >> most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor
> >> Tzadkiel made.  Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the
> >> old
> >> (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really
> >> run
> >> the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone
> >> town.
> >> Right?  If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I
> >> don't
> >> think.  They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right
> >> that
> >> Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one.
> >> > > >> (that argument here:
> >> http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html)
> >> > > >> So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the
> >> sequel,
> >> unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body
> >> separate from the Author of BoTNS.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > >I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau.  It's
> >> the
> >> forms.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >The Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit
> >> > > >about writing the same lines too close together.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >There's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted
> >> about
> >> > > >in the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of
> >> > > >larvae--"masked spirits."  Hardly what a modern who's taken a
> >> semester
> >> > > >of biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian
> >> > > >metaphysics.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no?
> >> > > the example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the
> >> multiple
> >> writings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out.
> >> The
> >> way they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I
> >> think.
> >> > >
> >> > > Here's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor
> >> would leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't.
> >> > >
> >> > > man this shit is really confusing.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > "One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me
> >> to
> >> my own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he
> >> dissolved into a glittering dust. And yet " I could not say it, but my
> >> eyes
> >> sought out the corpse.
> >> > > Barbatus nodded. "That eidolon, as you call them, had been in
> >> existence
> >> only briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support
> >> you
> >> on the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you
> >> needed
> >> from whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship
> >> when
> >> you tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left
> >> behind
> >> when you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship,
> >> in
> >> Yesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on.
> >> During
> >> all that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable,
> >> converting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body."
> >> > > "But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship."
> >> > > "Your twin lies dead there," Barbatus told me. "As another lies dead
> >> here. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have
> >> done
> >> what we did, because every living being is more than mere matter." He
> >> paused
> >> and glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. "What do you
> >> know
> >> of the anima?"
> >> > > I thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: "You're a
> >> materialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make
> >> materialism true." Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest.
> >> "Nothing," I
> >> muttered. "I know nothing of the anima."
> >> > > "In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one
> >> you
> >> quoted to me?"
> >> > > His wife sang, "Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung
> >> the
> >> Stone that puts the Stars to Flight."
> >> > > "Yes," I said. "I understand."
> >> > > Barbatus pointed. "Suppose I were to write those lines upon that
> >> wall
> >> and then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the
> >> true
> >> lines?"
> >> > > "Both," I said. "And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor
> >> speech
> >> either. I can't say what they are."
> >> > > "That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written
> >> there." He indicated the dead man. "Now it is written in you. When the
> >> light
> >> of the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet
> >> the
> >> anima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless "
> >> > > I waited for him to continue.
> >> > > Ossipago said, "Unless you come too close. If you write a name in
> >> the
> >> dust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one.
> >> If
> >> two currents flow through a conductor, there is one current."
> >> > > While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, "You came too near your
> >> double once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then
> >> he
> >> was gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead.
> >> Have
> >> you not wondered why? Be warned!"
> >> > > Barbatus nodded. "But as for our returning you to your own time, we
> >> can't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least
> >> he
> >> had more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a
> >> light;
> >> but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as
> >> Famulimus said."
> >> > > She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed
> >> to
> >> come from far away. "Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However
> >> tempted
> >> you may be be warned!"
> >> > > Barbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her
> >> voice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his
> >> own
> >> faint breath. "
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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