(urth) Original Sin and pagan gods

[Roy C. Lackey]

Dan'l quoted and wrote:
>> The Hieros were/will be in no sense angelic. They were the race
>> of humans, cognates of our (and Severian's) race, who sinned on
>> a grand scale in producing the race of beings known as
>> Hierogrammates, of which latter group Tzadkiel is an example.
>
>Yes. With the possible exception of "sinned on a grand scale" -- is
>producing the Hierogrammates actually a sin? It's clearly part of
>a huge _trap_, but that's another issue -- this is exactly how I
>understand the case.

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     "These men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence
to some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them -
that they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and
allies among their swarming worlds - they formed beings like themselves.
     "It was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and
died under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and
blood." (CITADEL, chapter XXXIV)
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That sounds like sin to me, and it was certainly on a grand scale.

>The two "hiero" races, Hierodules and Hierogrammates, are trapped
>in a cycle of producing each other. Humans at the peak of their
>development are the Hierodules; they "uplift" (to use Brin's term) --
>that is, interfere in and guide the development of -- the race that
>becomes the Hierogrammates. The Hierogrammates survive the
>Grand Gnab/Big Bang cycle and guide the development of
>humanity, thus resulting in the creation of the Hierodules, etc.

I assume you are using "Hierodules" in a figurative sense here, but even
then there is a problem reconciling the usage with the text. The "holy
slaves" (of which Barbatus and Famulimus are examples) were a race of beings
created by the Hierogrammates to serve them in Briah. (URTH, 36) They are
not humans, as their living quarters on Tzadkiel's Ship clearly shows.
Though they are doing the donkey work for the Hierogrammates, and urge
Severian to jump through hoops to satisfy Tzadkiel, they make it clear that
their only master is the Increate. (ibid.)

>Unclear:  _how_ do the Hierogrammates survive across the
>GG/BB gap: is Yesod immune to it? If so, then why do they need
>to repeat the cycle; they already exist, they don't need to ensure
>their own creation _again_.
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     "I was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it
survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps
it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings humanity had shaped into
what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the
universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they
had become.
     "From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so
looking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like
that who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them - or our sons - or
our fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the
truth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped;
it is at once their repayment and their revenge." (CITADEL, chapter XXXIV)
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Somewhere is a statement to the effect that with each cycle there is some
slight improvement made. Maybe, given enough repetitions, something
approaching heavenly perfection will be achieved. Eternity can't get any
longer. <g>

-Roy