(urth) Original Sin and pagan gods

[b sharp]

Well some interesting discussion points Dan'l (and wishing for an immediate 
improvement in the employment situation! Someplace must soon discover the 
valuable mind they are missing).  I'm not a Biblical scholar or really much 
of a scholar at all but I'll do my best to respond.

Dan'l writes:

>Regarding the flood, a small distinction between what you just said here 
>and what you said >before, what I argued with: earlier, you said it was to 
>"purify humanity from contamination."
>That's rather different from cleansing evil from the Earth, which I don't 
>argue with at all. The >difference being, of course, that the cleansing of 
>evil from the Earth would have involved wiping >out all of humanity.
>      "I will rid the earth's face of man, my own creation,"
>      Yahweh said, "and of animals also, reptiles too, and
>      the birds of heaven, for I regret having made them."
>         Gen. 6: 7, Jerusalem Bible.

>This isn't about purifying humanity; it's about removing humanity.  ("You 
>are a disease, Mister >Anderson, and I am the cure.")

First thanks for The Matrix quote. Just saw it again recently. Agent Smith 
is easily one of my favorite movie characters ever.  His "humans are not 
mammals but a virus" speech is so classic, imho.  I love Hugo Weaving's 
performance

Next, (sorry I couldn't find Jerusalem Bible) the next verses after 6:7 say:
6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect 
in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

Not sure where you got the part about Noah being a drunk but God seems to 
think Noah and his family are quite worth saving.  "Perfect in his 
generations" to me says "uncontaminated by matings with fallen angels".  The 
whole part about "Nephilim" comes right before the Noah section.

You said you don't think anyone understands what Nephilim are but how can 
that be?  What sort of Bible is incomprehensible to all people at all times 
in history?  Anyway I think Gene Wolfe agrees with the pundits who think the 
nephilim, the "great men of reknown", were giants,(and thus Nod, in the 
play).  I like one analyst who suggested this might be reference to the well 
known Sumerian giant/heroes Gilgamesh and Enkidu. I think ancient Hebrews 
would know of them, since we do.

I should be more careful with my words, however, when describing the flood 
and WHICH flood I mean, (Urth or Earth).  I really am more interested in 
BotNS than the Bible. I only study the Bible, currently, to try to see the 
source that Wolfe twisted into the BotNS.

So, anyway, in BotNS, humanity as a race doesn't seem to matter much with 
regard to purity.  They did their part to produce the Hiero race, despite 
being contaminated.  But as Apheta notes, humanity has already been strewn 
across the galaxy, too spread out to be dealt with as a whole. It is the 
planet Urth that matters and the Hieros will purify it (symbolic gesture?) 
one way or another.  Freezing it would do the job (and they would evacuate 
the remaining humans, Master Ash says).  Urth would be pure and lifeless.  
But Severian is willing to risk everything to have it purified, reborn and 
repopulated (not that he really understands what he is doing).

Isn't this the same choice God made?  Destroy everything, or destroy almost 
everything, purify and repopulate.  This makes Tzadkiel's ship like the ark 
and the sailors who repopulate Ushas like Noah and family, yes? (I know not 
everyone thinks it was the sailors who were landed on flood day).

Dan'l says:
>Adam and Eve as the parents of all humanity? No argument there, provided we 
>take it to >mean "all humanity is descended from them." But _only_ from 
>them? Again, I refer you to Cain,
>who seems to have found a wife in "the land of Nod, east of Eden." Yes, 
>traditionalists insist that >there were no other humans,but they kind of 
>waffle on the whole idea that A&E's kids actually
>committed incest. The escape hatch they never seem to find is that Genesis 
>describes creation >twice, and one of these makes it clear that God created 
>humanity in the plural (Gen. 1:26-30).
>Adam was special and set apart -- the one into whose nostrils God breathed.

I don't know that it is "Clear" but this "creating humanity twice" 
interpretation is exactly where the Lilith myth comes into play for the 
Kabbalists.  Notice it wasn't just any old son of Adam who found a wife in 
Nod, but Cain the first murderer. So if Cain's wife was not a daughter of 
Eve, then she was someone like Lilith (or maybe Lilith herself).  Not a 
special creation. No soul.  Notice the Catch 22 God sets up here with human 
creation.  Either you mate with your sister or mate with some soulless 
alternate, not really human, maybe a demon.  In fact, Kabbalism suggests 
that Adam was mating with animals first then pleaded with God for a true 
mate and that's what produced Lilith, then Eve.  There is just no way to 
avoid sin is there?  Ah well, they say all successful religions are based on 
contradiction.

Dan'l quotes:

>"...they realized that they were naked. So they
>sewed fig leaves together to make themselves loincloths." Note that they 
>didn't realize they were >naked and start having monkey sex; being naked 
>_bothered_ them. Why? "I was afraid because
>I was naked, so I hid," Adam tells God.  The key point here being that he 
>was _afraid_, not >ashamed.

I still don't get this point about Original Sin not being sexual. He made a 
loincloth.  Doesn't that show he was afraid of his penis and what it could 
do.  If he was afraid of...I dunno,....snakes or  lions or thunderstorms he 
would make a  spear or a treehouse or a poncho wouldn't he? What good is a 
loincloth except covering sexual parts? (some tribal men just use a gourd 
and Red Hot Chili Peppers used only socks on stage  ;-).

Lastly Dan'l says:

>I'm good with saying that fallen angels/demons/pagan gods make suggestions 
>that humans act on. >But the evil comes from our own freely made choices, 
>or we're automata, which I'm pretty sure >my fellow-Catholic Wolfe would 
>not wish to suggest.

I'm not sure of that.  I know free will is a strong component of most 
Christian faiths but I am not sure Gene Wolfe fully believes that it 
dominates every decision in our lives.  I found it excruciatingly, 
cringingly important in the Wolfe quote I put in at the end of my first 
"Original Sin and pagan gods" post, where Wolfe says he believes in pagan 
gods as real entities who interacted with humans.  These beings are 
superhuman, they can fool us completely sometimes if we are not armed with 
the proper knowledge.  So we can be tricked into doing evil through 
ignorance. And sometimes God allows this.

Take for example, Dorcas.  Severian has sex with his own grandmother.  Is 
that sort of incest an evil act or not?  It has to be an evil act by any 
cultural defintion, yet we really don't blame Severian do we?  He didn't 
know at the time, and Dorcas was the most right and good thing ever in 
Severian's life.  (I'll note that I think Severian did know Valeria was a 
family member and his consciously celibate marriage to her was a step toward 
his/humanity's salvation, but I mustn't get ahead of myself).

On the other hand, take Severian's decision on his Judgement Day.  He has 
the choice to stay safe with the crew and let the big Zak personage take his 
place as Urth's Epitome.  He is swayed by fear and by very rational 
arguments from his crewmates to just stay put.  Zak is a better choice.  But 
he knows he IS Urth's epitome and acts only on that knowledge, blocking all 
else out and accepting responsibility.  So in this situation he was fully 
armed with the knowledge he needed and used it and did the right thing.  
Free will is only available  in situations when we have the proper knowledge 
of right and wrong, yes? And then again, when Severian sees the destruction 
of Urth needed to create Ushas he doubts the rightness of his choice 
afterall.  Is this Wolfe's further exploration of the ambiguity of The Path?

Peter Wright, (if I understand him) in his godless, Marxist, socialist glee 
;-) takes that last part to mean that God (if he actualy existed) is just as 
evil, self-serving and manipulative as Lucifer and Severian is caught in an 
evil web, pulled from all sides, too complex for him to see.  I don't think 
this is Wolfe's view.

I think in leaving the angels and demons (Hieros and Megatherians in my 
interpretation) of BotNS very mysterious and hard to understand, Wolfe is 
saying that there are heavenly machinations; battles between good and evil 
which are above us and beyond our understanding. But in crucial situations, 
we humans will be given enough knowledge to make the right choice.

-bsharp