(urth) Re: Crush on trial

[James Wynn]

>>>Tony Ellis wrote:
>>>True. Ozymandias chose to sacrifice the few to save the many. Severian
>>>does it the other way around. :-)

>>Crush responded:
>>When one considers the generations unborn on Urth if the New Sun does
>>not come, then the opposite is true.

>To which Tony Ellis counters:
>If what counts is the number of descendants the survivors of a mass
>slaughter might one day have, then mass slaughter on any scale, no
>matter how horrifically vast, can always be justified as the killing of
>the few. We tend to measure these things in terms of actual people
>killed.

Hm. You are aware that for the Hierodules those unborn numbers have actually 
lived, right? It is not supposition for them as it would be for you and me 
and Hitler and Stalin and Ozymandias. There is simply no comparison.

>And what about all the generations who *will* be born on Urth if the New
>Sun doesn't come? Not to mention all those born on all the other worlds
>to which humanity is transplanted after Urth dies. Don't they count?

Who's to say humanity would have been transplanted? There is only one ship 
off the planet and no one else has interstellar capabilities. As The Short 
Sun shows, transplanting humanity into the stars is no simple task. I'd say 
many fewer generations are available to humanity without the New Sun.

>Both Ozymandias' and Severian's mass-murders of innocents will in theory
>ensure the preservation of future generations. But if you're going to
>differentiate between their achievements - especially in the same breath
>as you use the word 'fascist' - then the ratio of those saved to those
>slaughtered seems significant.

All fascists are not mass murderers. In fact, the fascists are probably not 
among the top 2 or 3 mass murderers. So I don't know why the use of the term 
fascist in this case is anymore jarring than using more mundane terms like 
"socialist", "atheist", or "collectivist". But since you believe the ratios 
are significant, I hope I have shown that Severian does okay against 
Ozymandias...especially since Ozy could not be assured that his plan would 
save a single life while Severian could know the benefits of his actions and 
the costs of his inactions into the distant mists of Time.

~ Crush