(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree

[James Wynn]

MourningS Glory says:
>In marshalling his various arguments about the sons of Typhon, cloned or 
>otherwise, the winsome Mr. Wynn has written "there is still the fact that 
>[Severian's] crypt is Typhon's family mausoleum." But is this really so? 

[Then MSG notes the following questions, which I will attempt an answer
with the understanding that I'm definitely "behind the eight ball" 
in this case.]

>1)Why would Severian, who has 
>never heard of Princess Cilinia, assume that she is buried in the little 
>crypt he has so come to favor over the years? 

Yes, and that was my expectation. But there is something "off" about the
narration in this case. They don't "search" for a mausoleum, 
he *takes* them to one. I would have expected Cilinia, actually, to
find it. That's not the way it happens, and if the crypt is not Severians
the telling is all wrong.

I'm not certain why they would be in a "little crypt" (Severian
says the room was small, not the monument). But I'm most surprised to
find her buried with any honors at all considering that she seems to have
been executed for betraying her father. And a large mausoleum does not
necessarily denote the oldest or most important. There is an infamous
amount of "oneupsmanship" in mausoleum building.


>2) Isn't it therefore much more likely that he takes Horn and his group
>to one of the bigger, fancier mausoleums in the necropolis--one befitting
>a princess of some centuries past? 

Yes, something like that is what I would have expected. But then there
ought to have been a search *among the large ones* and Severian would
not have been expected to take the lead in picking it out, especially with
as little to go on regarding Cilinia's past as he had. He couldn't even SEE
after all.



>3)...As I believe Marc Arimani has already pointed out, what does 
>the device graved on the bronze door of Severian's crypt (the fountain, ship 
>volant, and rose) have to do with Typhon the Great or his family? Nothing, 
>whereas all three, as we shall see, clearly resonate with events in 
>Severian's life.

Well, we don't really know that the symbols on the crypt have NOTHING to do
with Typhon's family. Would we know what those symbols meant if Wolfe had
not written "Urth of the New Sun"? They are still rather tenous and it seems to
me Severian found meaning IN the symbols rather than the symbols having
been designed after the fact.  I thought that was the part of meaning of his
famous quote about symbols:
"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are
their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges."

And has anyone theorized how this person in the tomb is *actually* Severian?
(perhaps if it were Apu Punchau's crypt...)

>4) Notice as 
>well the rather unspecific "lots of coffins," most of which are not up on 
>the stone shelves, and many of which are empty. Given the size of the two
respective crypts and  the number of open and closed and shelved caskets in
each, clearly they cannot be the same.

Ouch. 
The "size of the crypt" is not described in the text, however Hoof's
overall take on the number and his description of the layout of the coffins
is a difficult (although not insurmountable) difference. It would be cheating
for me to say "well, Wolfe made a mistake, here". I don't have answer to
this. Nor can I relinquish my discomfort with the description of how the crypt
was found. However, you have proven that fingering Severian's crypt as
Cilinia's is not as obvious as I asserted.

>So then why does Wolfe plant the suggestion that the two families may be 
>related--an interesting idea in itself and one initially proposed by the 
>long absent Mr. Andre-Driussi? The same reason he locates a gaint undersea 
>wall on Blue and has Horn periodically abstaining from eating. For 
>misdirection, which he loves--apparently as much as red herring.

I certainly agree he loves misdirection in his answers to questions regarding
his books, however, now we are stuck in a loop like the one Chris accused me
of making from Wolfe's answer regarding Silk's "ancestry". If the hints of
connection between Severian and Typhon, the giant undersea wall on Blue,
and the Rajan's fasting (until the Spring) are misdirections, then they are
red-herrings. If they are clues, then they have narrative import.
And vice versa vice versa.

btw: I still don't think *my* loop is as eternal as this one.

But if it is cheating for me to wave my hands and say "Wolfe goofed here",
how can we permit every reference that gives us serious difficulty to be
chunked in the "red-herring" bin?

>I may be wrong in this (note to site administrator: the Urth search 
>functions pretty much sucks in my opinion), but hasn't Wolfe written a short 
>story about Typhon, yet to be published in Peter Crowther's POSTSCRIPTS, 
>entitled "Comber?" Perhaps Dr. Nick Gevers could confirm or deny. If so, 
>perhaps it will answer many of the questions resolving around Typhon--or 
>knowing Mr. Wolfe's penchant for devilry generate hundreds more.

I remember Michael Andre-Driussi saying he had convinced Wolfe to write
such a story. I was not aware he had started such a story. 

Apparently "Comber" is published, and I remember some discussion about it.
http://www.pspublishing.co.uk/cat/ps3.asp

I don't think it was Typhon-related.

~ James Wynn

"I examined his face and meditated on my own as I saw it in the polished metal. My straight nose, deep-set eyes, and sunken cheeks were much like his, and I longed to know if he too had dard hair."
-- Severian contemplating a corpse in his mausoleum