(urth) 5HC : Skinner, Turing, Laplace

[James Wynn]

>I mean that you unwittingly included factors (demon outside the universe
>with ability to interact with things inside the universe) that may not
*say*
>in so many words that "the universe is not deterministic", but nonetheless
>logically entail that it *cannot be* deterministic. Left as is, the problem
>collapses to nonsense because by its definition it is, but cannot be,
>deterministic.

Basically, it does not take into account an Einstienian view of the universe
in which time itself is dimension just like space. (and how could Laplace
have known about that?)

If the demon is truely outside the universe, then he can see time from its
start to its termination as easily as it can see all things operating within
the universe. This means the that universe does not have to be deterministic
for him to accurately predict the future: he has only to see what happened
after the choices are made rather than "predicted" based on any particular
"state" of the universe.

This is why I think the "computer" was a better idea than a demon sitting
outside the universe. A conventional computer can (theoretically) be equiped
with enough back-up monitoring measures to be reliably constantly aware of
the "state" of its own processes because it is not as complex as a demon.

The primary point of a computer was merely that if you had all the
information at your desposal you could predict any final result. But has not
chaos theory suggested this is impossible? Hasn't it accepted that the
interactions of 3 or 4 bodies on each other, let alone a cloud of bodies
cannot be predicted for any ONE of those bodies --  that you can can only
predict the actions of the group?

Granted 3 or 4 asteroids orbiting each other do not have free will, but the
computer thought-experiment presumes rational creatures ARE deterministic.
It presumes that if you had a computer that had all the information on the
universe's current state available to it, it's predictions would be
accurate. But what if it weren't? It might be free will or it might be a
demon from outside the universe influencing bodies. So you could annex the
demon into the universe (and all things influencing that demon in it's own
metaverse), but what if the computer's predictions were still inaccurate?
This thought experiement doesn't suggest the outcome in any way.

Heck, if vibrating molecules are not deterministic, why should humans be? I
have made random choices about big decisions in my life. Perhaps over time
you can decide the odds of my decision for a particular random choice and
even the general flow my inclinations in my random choices over time, but I
do not see how any computer could reliably determine my particular choices
at any time, and so it will not know the state of the universe for future
choices (ad infinitum).

~ Crush