(urth) RE: Doomed multitudes

[maru]

Tony Ellis wrote:

>Maru wrote
>  
>
>>I recollect the Undines said that they could have, at any
>>moment taken 
>>the Commonwealth
>>but they forebore, to try and stop the New Sun.
>>    
>>
>
>What Joturna says is that Abaia "might have destroyed you... In a day,
>or a few days. He's sought to tame you instead." UOTNS, XLIII.
>
>Destroyed, not taken. Abaia wants humanity alive. 
>
>
>  
>
Remember, Abaia and Erebus already own the rest of Urth
(apparently; at least we hear of noone else resisting them, and
so it is reasonable they have all come to an 'understandin'.
And That they own the rest of the world is reasonable when
you posit that they are modelled after  the Soviet Union and the
circumstances of the Cold War.  Didn't the whole thing with
approved texts and the Ascians remind you of 1984?).
They want the Commonwealth intact... why? Why is it  necessary
that the Commonwealth be 'tamed'? 
I think it is because the rest of the worlds
of man and the Hs see the Commonwealth as the legitimate speaker for Urth
and so if Abaia and co want a speaker for Urth who will choose an Ice 
future,
they must not raze the Commonwealth to the ground like they could, but 
as I said
take it intact and via more subtle and inefficient means. Sev says as 
much a few times.
 

>>The sailors are shown the consequence of the New Sun fork,
>>not the Ice Urth fork.
>>    
>>
>
>"Zak showed us that Urth had two futures... It could die and be born
>new. Or it could go on living for a long time before it died forever."
>UOTNS, XXII
>
>Tzadkiel the Just shows the sailors that humanity drowns in one future,
>but omits to mention that it is equally doomed in the other? Doesn't
>sound very likely to me.
>
>  
>
Sev says during the Flood that makes Ushas something to the effect
'So this is what the sailors saw.' and agrees with their choice.

>But this is all by the by. Nowhere in the books does it say that in the
>Frozen Urth future humanity is enslaved by Abaia. Nowhere does it say
>that branch of humanity is doomed. It says, quite categorically, that
>life goes on.
>
>
>  
>
No, it says that life will go on for a little while, and then they
will all die, forever.

>>Please explain to me how you can say that N worlds of people (where N
>>represents the totality
>>of worlds colonized by man, including a revitalized Urth/Ushas) could 
>>possibly only
>>equal or be less (!) than N-1 worlds of people.
>>    
>>
>
>Because any attempt to predict which future will ultimately colonise the
>most worlds is pointless speculation. The Green Men may eventually
>decide Urth is so sacred they don't live on it at all. The Frozen Urth
>people may build 50,000 ringworlds each with the surface area of a
>thousand Urths. Rather more probably, both races will at some point
>decide that they don't actually want to fill the universe to capacity
>like mindless animals at all, and control their populations accordingly.
>
>  
>
May, may may... (How could the Frozen Urthers build any Dyson rings?  It 
is all
they can do to import a few cannons, much less engage in mega-engineering
projects.  The future of a Frozen Urth is one of *irreversible* 
decline.  If they
cannot at the time of BOTNS make a ring, they will not be able to in the 
future.)

Humanity may be murdered tomorrow, and so leaving a world my descendants
can live in tomorrow is utterly irrelevant to any decisions I may make!

The Urth may be swallowed by a hidden, undetectable black hole
the bday after tomorrow, therefor let us make decisions only with
regard to us!

If we cannot be sure of anything, let us do nothing!

If it is not 100% certain that our food shall not infect us with tiny
alien parasites which will feed off us and burst messily out of
our chests, let us not eat at all!

>This is precisely why measuring what the New Sun achieves in terms of
>future generations is a non-starter, as I've been saying for some time
>now. The people on this list who suggest that it is worthwhile because
>it may bring about the Hierogrammates at least have an argument.
>  
>
But the Hierogrammates have already been brought about...

~Maru