(urth) altruism (slight thread necromancy)
maru
marudubshinki at gmail.com
Fri Apr 1 18:11:58 PST 2005
I realize our debate on altruism and ethics is a bit dead, and pointless
but I saw this on a another list and it seems pretty relevant to our
discussions
so I'm forwarding it. Makes for interesting reading, anyway.
~Maru
> From http://sl4.org/wiki/DialogueOnFriendliness
> (Eliezer-2003 era, partially superceded by CollectiveVolition)
>
> Cathryn: All right. Suppose I wished for the genie to grab an ice
> cream cone from a little girl and give it to me. Now it might be a
> really delicious and satisfying ice cream cone, but it would still be
> wrong to take the ice cream cone away from the little girl. Isn't your
> definition of satisfaction fundamentally selfish?
>
> Dennis: I'll say! *I* should get the ice cream cone.
>
> Bernard: Well, of course, the so-called altruist is also really
> selfish. It's just that the altruist is made happy by other people's
> happiness, so he tries to make other people happy in order to increase
> his own happiness.
>
> Cathryn: That sounds like a silly definition. It sounds like a bunch
> of philosophers trying to get rid of the inconvenient square peg of
> altruism by stuffing it into an ill-fitting round hole. That is just
> not how altruism actually works in real people, Bernard.
>
> Autrey: I wouldn't dismiss the thought entirely. The philosopher
> Raymond Smullyan once asked: "Is altruism sacrificing your own
> happiness for the happiness of others, or gaining your happiness
> through the happiness of others?" I think that's a penetrating question.
>
> Eileen: I would say that altruism is making choices so as to maximize
> the expected happiness of others. My favorite definition of altruism
> is one I found in a glossary of Zen: "Altruistic behavior: An act done
> without any intent for personal gain in any form. Altruism requires
> that there is no want for material, physical, spiritual, or egoistic
> gain."
>
> Cathryn: No *spiritual* gain?
>
> Eileen: That's right.
>
> Bernard: That sounds like Zen, all right - self-contradictory,
> inherently impossible of realization. Different people are made happy
> by different things, but everyone does what makes them happy. If the
> altruist were not made happy by the thought of helping others, he
> wouldn't do it.
>
> Autrey: I may be made happy by the thought of helping others. That
> doesn't mean it's the reason I help others.
>
> Cathryn: Yes, how would you account for someone who sacrifices her
> life to save someone else's? She can't possibly anticipate being happy
> once she's dead.
>
> Autrey: Some people do.
>
> Cathryn: I don't. And yet there are still things I would give my life
> for. I think. You can't ever be sure until you face the crunch.
>
> Eileen: There you go, Cathryn. There's your counterexample.
>
> Cathryn: Huh?
>
> Eileen: If your wish is to sacrifice your life so that someone else
> may live, you can't say "Yes, I'm satisfied" afterward.
>
> Autrey: If you have a genie on hand, you really should be able to
> think of a better solution than that.
>
> Eileen: Perhaps. Regardless, it demonstrates at least one hole in that
> definition of volition.
>
> Bernard: It is not a hole in the definition. It is never rational to
> sacrifice your life for something, precisely because you will not be
> around to experience the satisfaction you anticipate. A genie should
> not fulfill irrational wishes.
>
> Autrey: Cathryn knows very well that she cannot feel anything after
> she dies, and yet there are still things she would die for, as would
> I. We are not being tricked into that decision, we are making the
> choice in full awareness of its consequences. To quote Tyrone Pow, "An
> atheist giving his life for something is a profound gesture." Where is
> the untrue thing that we must believe in order to make that decision?
> Where is the inherent irrationality? We do not make that choice in
> anticipation of feeling satisfied. We make it because some things are
> more important to us than feeling satisfaction.
>
> Bernard: Like what?
>
> Cathryn: Like ten other people living to fulfill their own wishes. All
> sentients have the same intrinsic value. If I die, and never get to
> experience any satisfaction, that's more than made up for by ten other
> people living to experience their own satisfactions.
>
> Bernard: Okay, what you're saying is that other people's happiness is
> weighted by your goal system the same as your own happiness, so that
> when ten other people are happy, you experience ten times as much
> satisfaction as when you yourself are happy. This can make it rational
> to sacrifice for other people - for example, you donate a thousand
> dollars to a charity that helps the poor, because the thousand dollars
> can create ten times as much happiness in that charity as it could
> create if you spent it on yourself. What can never be rational is
> sacrificing your life, even to save ten other lives, because you won't
> get to experience the satisfaction.
>
> Cathryn: What? You're saying that you wouldn't sacrifice your own life
> even to save the entire human species?
>
> Bernard: (Laughs.) Well, I don't always do the rational thing.
>
> Cathryn: Argh. You deserve to be locked in a cell for a week with Ayn
> Rand.
>
> Autrey: Bernard, I'm not altruistic because I anticipate feeling
> satisfaction. The reward is that other people benefit, not that I
> experience the realization that they benefit. Given that, it is
> perfectly rational to sacrifice my life to save ten people.
>
> Bernard: But you won't ever know those ten people lived.
>
> Autrey: So what? What I value is not "the fact that Autrey knows ten
> people lived", what I value is "the fact that ten people lived". I
> care about the territory, not the map. You know, this reminds me of a
> conversation I once had with Greg Stock. He thought that drugs would
> eventually become available that could simulate any feeling of
> satisfaction, not just simple ecstasy - for example, drugs that
> simulated the feeling of scientific discovery. He then went on to say
> that he thought that once this happened, everyone would switch over to
> taking the drugs, because real scientific discovery wouldn't be able
> to compare.
>
> Cathryn: Yikes. I wouldn't go near a drug like that with a
> ten-lightyear pole.
>
> Autrey: That's what I said, too - that I wanted to genuinely help
> people, not just feel like I was doing so. "No," said Greg Stock,
> "you'd take them anyway, because no matter how much you helped people,
> the drugs would still make you feel ten times better."
>
> Cathryn: That assumes I'd take the drugs to begin with, which I
> wouldn't ever do. I don't want to be addicted. I don't want to be
> transformed into the person those drugs would make me.
>
> Autrey: The strange thing was that Greg Stock didn't seem to mind the
> prospect. It sounded like he saw it as a natural development.
>
> Cathryn: So where'd the conversation go after that?
>
> Autrey: I wanted to talk about the difference between psychological
> egoism and psychological altruism. But it was a bit too much territory
> to cover in the thirty seconds of time I had available.
>
> Dennis: Psychological egoism and psychological altruism? Eh?
>
> Eileen: The difference between a goal system that optimizes an
> internal state and a goal system that optimizes an external state.
>
> Cathryn: There's a formal difference?
>
> Eileen: Yes.
>
> Bernard: No.
>
> Cathryn: Interesting.
>
> Autrey: In philosophy, this is known as the egoism debate. It's been
> going on for a while. I don't really agree with the way the arguments
> are usually phrased, but I can offer a quick summary anyway. You want
> one?
>
> Dennis: Yeah.
>
> Autrey: Okay. Psychological egoism is the position that all our
> ultimate ends are self-directed. That is, we can want external things
> as means to an end, but all our ultimate ends - all things that we
> desire in themselves rather than for their consequences - are
> self-directed in the sense that their propositional content is about
> our own states.
>
> Eileen: Propositional content? Sounds rather GOFAI-ish.
>
> Autrey: Maybe, but it's the way the standard debate is phrased.
> Anyway, let's say I want it to be the case that I have a chocolate
> bar. This desire is purely self-directed, since the propositional
> content mentions me and no other agent. On the other hand, suppose I
> want it to be the case that Jennie has a candy bar. This desire is
> other-directed, since the propositional content mentions another
> person, Jennie, but not myself. Psychological egoism claims that all
> our ultimate desires are self-directed; psychological altruism says
> that at least some of our ultimate desires are other-directed.
>
> Bernard: If you want Jennie to have a candy bar, it means that you
> would be happy if Jennie got a candy bar. Your real end is always
> happiness.
>
> Autrey: That's known as psychological hedonism, which is a special
> case of psychological egoism. As Sober and Wilson put it, "The
> hedonist says that the only ultimate desires that people have are
> attaining pleasure and avoding pain... the salient fact about hedonism
> is its claim that people are motivational solipsists; the only things
> they care about ultimately are states of their own consciousness.
> Although hedonists must be egoists, the reverse isn't true. For
> example, if people desire their own survival as an end in itself, they
> may be egoists, but they are not hedonists." Another quote from the
> same authors: "Avoiding pain is one of our ultimate goals. However,
> many people realize that being in pain reduces their ability to
> concentrate, so they may sometimes take an aspirin in part because
> they want to remove a source of distraction. This shows that the
> things we want as ends in themselves we may also want for instrumental
> reasons... When psychological egoism seeks to explain why one person
> helped another, it isn't enough to show that one of the reasons for
> helping was self-benefit; this is quite consistent with there being
> another, purely altruistic, reason that the individual had for
> helping. Symmetrically, to refute egoism, one need not cite examples
> of helping in which only other-directed motives play a role. If people
> sometimes help for both egoistic and altruistic ultimate reasons, then
> psychological egoism is false."
>
> Dennis: The very notion of altruism is incoherent.
>
> Autrey: That argument is indeed the chief reason why some philosophers
> espouse psychological hedonism.
>
> Cathryn: Sounds like a lot of silly philosophizing to me. Does it
> really matter whether I'm considered a "motivational solipsist" or
> whatever, as long as I actually help people?
>
> Bernard: That's just it! It doesn't make any operational difference -
> all goal systems operate to maximize their internal satisfaction, no
> matter what external events cause satisfaction.
>
> Eileen: That's not true; it does make an operational difference. If
> Autrey values the solipsistic psychological event of knowing he saved
> ten lives, he will never sacrifice his own life to save ten other
> lives; if he values those ten lives in themselves, he may. You told
> him that, remember?
>
> Bernard: Well, I guess Autrey might value the instantaneous happiness
> of knowing he chose to save ten lives, more than he values all the
> happiness he might achieve in the rest of his life.
>
> Cathryn: That doesn't sound anything remotely like the way real people
> think. Square peg, round hole.
>
> Autrey: Do you have anything new to contribute to the debate, Eileen?
> It's a pretty ancient issue in philosophy.
>
> Eileen: The basic equation for a Bayesian decision system is usually
> phrased something like D(a) = Sum U(x)P(x|a). This is known as the
> expected utility equation, and it was derived by von Neumann and
> Morgenstern in 1944 as a unique constraint on preference orderings for
> all systems that obey certain consistency axioms -
>
> Dennis: Start over.
>
> Eileen: Okay. Imagine that D(a) stands for the "desirability" of an
> action A, that U(x) stands for the "utility" of a state of the
> universe X, and P(x|a) is your assigned "probability" that the state X
> occurs, given that you take action A. For example, let's say that I
> show you two spinner wheels, the red spinner and the green spinner.
> One-third of the red spinner wheel is black, while two-thirds of the
> green spinner wheel is white. Both spinners have a dial that I'm going
> to spin around until it settles at random into a red or black area
> (for the red spinner) or a white or green area (for the green
> spinner). The red spinner has a one-third chance of turning up black,
> while the green spinner has a two-thirds chance of turning up white.
> Let's say that I offer you one of two choices; you can pick the red
> spinner and get a chocolate ice cream cone if the spinner turns up
> black, or you can pick the green spinner and get a vanilla ice cream
> cone if the spinner turns up white.
>
> (And then it gets complicated...)
>
> --
> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/
> Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
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