(urth) Tales of Silk and Horn

[Chris]

As a preliminary note, I've found the posts laying out the specific examples 
of Wolfe's thought problems to be interesting, although I disagree with the 
project of dropping them into categories as such. I think it would be more 
effective, actually, to define an axis or two and then place the specific 
examples within the overall framework, which may point out which examples 
can most fruitfully be compared (and point out some examples that aren't 
really so comparable as they appear). For example, the biological/mechanical 
distinction would be one axis. Memory might be another. Etc, etc. To the 
cases worth looking at which have already been mentioned I would add another 
that was brought up to me by another reader of this list: the case of Dr. 
Talos, as a creation of Baldanders.

The main thing I'm going to be concerned with in this post, though, is 
taking a look at Silkhorn from various different perspectives, in a format 
(inappropriately, perhaps) similar to Kierkegaard's "Attunement" when he 
started examining Abraham. I'm going to use James Wynn's terms, "soul" and 
"psyche", which I think are appropriate, with the small qualification that 
the complex view actually allows two outlooks - one in which there is no 
such thing as a "soul", and another in which there is, but the "soul" is 
nothing other than the "psyche" itself. Whereas in the simple view there is 
always a soul, and it is always distinct from psyche. And on we go...

>From the complex (C) view:
As he lays dying, Horn's psyche is transferred to Silk's body. Silk 
effectively ceases to exist and Horn takes his place; he self-identifies as 
Horn, has continuity of memory with Horn, and has his inclinations, desires, 
and life projects. Bits of Silk's psyche might be considered to linger, in 
the form of certain mannerisms which *might* indicate that, on a deeper 
level, elements of Silk's psyche remains.
   (C1) Over time, these submerged elements of Silk's psyche begin to play a 
larger and larger part and "Horn" slowly starts to become "Silk", until 
finally the elements of psyche most distinctly identified with Horn are 
almost entirely suppressed [leaving aside the question of whether Horn's 
psyche ended up being transferred elsewhere, etc]. In the end this neo-Silk 
realizes that he is no longer Horn, and mourns the death of his "former 
self".
   (C2) Over time, Horn's attempts to imitate Silk, strengthened by the 
remnants of whatever remnant of Silk's inclinations biologically remain 
within his body, succeed in the self-transformation he has strived for - he 
becomes more and more like Silk, til the point where his psyche resembles 
the original Silk more than it does Horn, and he can be said to have 
"become" Silk. When he comes to terms with the transformation that has taken 
place, this new Silk mourns the death of his former self, which he in a 
sense deliberately caused.

Simple view, variant 1 (S1):
The Neighbor transfers Horn's soul and psyche into Silk, and Silk's soul 
departs (along with most, but possibly not all, of his psyche). Over time, 
Silk's psyche re-asserts itself because it is powerfully attached to the 
body Horn inhabits (S1a), or else Horn's imitation of Silk succeeds in 
transforming his psyche to be much like Silk's (S1b), as above. At this 
point Horn becomes overwhelmed, not only by his changed psyche but also by 
the insistence of everyone else, and despite his continuing inner conviction 
that he is Horn, finally becomes confused enough about his own identity that 
he accepts identification as Silk. "In a way" he can be said to have become 
Silk, in the same way that a demon imitating a god can be said to have 
become that god, but he is still, irreducibly, Horn - albeit a Horn that has 
"lost himself".

Simple view, variant 2 (S2):
The Neighbor transfers Horn's soul and psyche into Silk, but Silk's soul and 
psyche both remain as well. Silk's soul and psyche do not assert themselves 
at first, because they were on the brink of complete withdrawal and suicide 
when Horn arrived. Over time they recover, and are perhaps strengthened by 
Horn's attempt to imitate Silk. They reassert their claim on the body, which 
is more strongly tied to Silk than it is to Horn, and perhaps their psyches 
blend to an extent leaving a psyche which is a combination of Silk and 
Horn's imitation of Silk. Horn's soul eventually departs for parts unknown. 
When Silk realizes that Horn is gone for good, he mourns his friend.

Simple view, variant 3 (S3):
The Neighbor transfers Horn's psyche, but not his soul (which is moving to 
the great beyond) into Silk's body. Silk's soul remains present, but his 
psyche, which was despairing, is displaced by Horn's, which "takes care of 
him" and keeps him alive and moving. It is Silk the whole time, but a Silk 
who looks through the eyes and memories of Horn, and who self-identifies as 
Horn, while his original psyche deals with its grief. Silk's psyche 
gradually recovers and reasserts himself, but it takes additional time for 
Silk, who has gotten into the habit of self-identifying as Horn, to come to 
the realization of who he is and to face the pain that comes along with that 
realization.


One or none of these stories may be the one Wolfe was trying to tell; I 
think they all have some merit and would make a good story in their own 
right. The question I am interested in is, given the rest of the novels, are 
any of these stories particularly incompatible with Wolfe's overall theme, 
and if so what makes them so? Or alternately, do any of the above Silkhorns 
fail to live up to the Silkhorn in BotSS, and if so, can we identify what it 
is that they lack?

>So much has gone on since my last post I'm hesitant reference quotes
>precisely so I'll just sum up.
>
>Civit's delineation between a simple and complex soul is astute. For
>convenience sake I think one should call the "simple" version a "soul" and
>the complex version the "psyche".
>
>Roy's reference to Sidero is a pertinent one. But there are some 
>weaknesses:
>a) Sidero does not question his existence. The conversation between 
>Severian
>and Sidero only touches on how men were formed from less complex and how
>Sidero's "people" did as well. That men and autonomous robots are complex
>and independent and slowly evovled from less forms does mean that Sidero 
>(or
>even Severian, for that matter) has a soul.
>
>b) That Sidero apologizes for his past does not mean he has a soul or is
>even sentient. Sidero was made to work among and with men and, originally 
>at
>least, for men. Now one presumes he works for mankind. Social graces would
>be necessary for such a task and would logically be programmed in.
>
>c) That Sidero felt pleasure in hitting Severian does not mean that he has 
>a
>soul or is even sentient. Chems in LS take pleasure in good smells because
>they need to to cook well. Consequently, it would not be unreasonable for
>Chems to wear perfume or for Sidero be inclined to take "pleasure" in
>whatever task he is programmed to do. My dog seems to take pleasure in so
>many things, but despite what Martin Luther may say (and what Able implies
>in The Wizard), my dog (as opposed to Gylf) does not have a soul.
>Note that Sidero does not apologize for striking Severian. In that
>
>d) The fact that Sidero repents does not require that he believes in God.
>Any atheist would tell you that I'm sure.
>
>Does sentiency (which, I guess, falls under the realm of the psyche) 
>presume
>a soul? I don't see why it should. Wolfe provides an example of psyche not
>co-existing with a soul in a recent work. So may argue that it is not
>reasonable to draw parallels between a work of fantasy and a work of 
>science
>fiction. I disagree, because the consideration of the soul spans science
>fiction and fantasy and 2) the Sun cycle decimates any strict genre
>guidelines between the two anyway.
>
>Here examples of the "soul" experiments Wolfe offers that I can think of:
>A) The Machine Analogies:
>Mr. Million, The Fox, Sidero, Chems, The Whorl Gods, The Short Sun (SS)
>Mother.
>
>B) Animals With Souls
>Scylla-in-Oreb, Mani-with-his-Elemental-Soul, Gylf, the Inhumi, Babbie
>(remember we see his soul during dream travel)
>
>(other talking animals include Oreb in his natural state and Tick the
>Catachrest, do they have souls? -- btw how did Echidna summon all those
>snakes?)
>
>The Possessions:
>Thecla in Sev, the line of Autarchs in Sev, Lemur in the chem,
>Rose-In-Marble, the Whorl Gods in Humans, Mucor-in-People  (IMO:
>Mamelta-in-Marble, Molybdenum-in-Marble, Pas-in-Hammerstone, )
>
>Memory experiements:
>Latro (who can't remember anything for more than 18 hours) and the Whorl
>Sleepers who can't remember their lives on Urth and seems to have been
>implanted with false memories)
>
>Pot Pouri:
>Typhon and Piaton, Dream-Travel, Mucor's travel (which may not count since
>apparently involves remotely imprinting her image on the minds of other
>people), The Neighbors; Question: When Severian rides in Sidero does that
>constitute another soul in the same way that Mani and his elemental
>constitute a temporary soul?
>
>It is interesting to me that Wolfe never chose to take Marble on a
>dream-travel trip. It would help in this discussion if he had.
>
>All this does not influence my conviction that Wolfe has betrayed a belief
>in a *soul* instead of merely a *psyche* but he seems deliberately obscure
>regarding where the dividing line is between them and as I said, I could
>definitely understand someone seeing it the opposite way.
>
> >Notice the Catholics accepted evolution and thermodynamics while the
>Protestants do not, besides the fact Catholics don't deracinate 
>Christianity
>
>I was not aware of the former, and I'm sure I could make a case that
>Catholics have deracinated as much as anyone with even more vigor. Some
>Catholics believe in evolution and some don't. Just like Protestants, and
>both are bothered by the idea that the universe material universe is a
>closed cycle in which only chemical and physical operations apply.
>
>Also, one of the Pope's primary reasons for coming out against human 
>cloning
>and contraception is a rejection of making humanity a human creation.
>
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