(urth) AI souls
Stanis³aw Bocian
sbocian at poczta.fm
Tue Dec 7 12:42:43 PST 2004
Tuesday, December 7, 2004, 7:14:04 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:
RCL> Just so. And Wolfe goes out of his way to make Apheta and her kind have no
RCL> tongues. In Chapter XIX, aptly named "Silence", Apheta says:
RCL> --------------------------------------------
RCL> "You have listened to my voice for a long
RCL> while now, Autarch. Listen to this world of Yesod instead
RCL> and tell me what you hear, other than my words, when I
RCL> speak to you. Listen! What do you hear?"
RCL> I did not understand. I said, "Nothing. But you are a
RCL> human woman."
RCL> "You hear nothing because we speak with silence, even
RCL> as you with sound. Whatever noises we find we shape,
RCL> canceling those which are unneeded, voicing our thoughts
RCL> in the remainder. That is why I led you here, where the
RCL> waves murmur always; and why we have so many fountains,
RCL> and trees to stir their leaves in the wind from our sea."
RCL> --------------------------------------------
Compare with the Hierodules in the Sword of the Lictor:
"I asked, "You have left them these machines, then?" I was acutely
conscious, as I spoke, of the eviscerated woman mumbling beneath her
glass somewhere behind me, a thing that once would not have bothered
the torturer Severian in the least.
Barbatus said, "No. Those he found, or constructed for himself.
Famulimus said that he wished to learn, and that we saw to it that he
did, not that we taught him. We teach no one anything, and only trade
such devices as are too complex for your people to duplicate."
Dr. Talos said, "These monsters, these horrors, do nothing for us.
You've seen themyou know what they are. ...
....
"Now we must go," Ossipago told Baldanders, and he handed him the
Claw. "Think well on all the things we have not told you, and
remember what you have not been shown."
"I will," Baldanders said, his voice as grim as I was ever to hear
it."
I wonder whether my ideas about Tolkien's Valar would not apply here.
I think that all supernatural forces in the Lord of the Ring tend to
act upon the material world in a specific way - they don't cause
anything themselves, but manipulate natural causes. I don't think here
about lesser natural spirits such as ents etc, but about more
powerfull being.
For example Valar and the wind - the change of direction of wind at
the battle of Pelennor is entirely natural, but it is no accident
that it happened then, and not at any other time. The idea is, by the
way, from Tom Shippey.
Using an idea from modern science, the Valar and similar beings don't
influence the probability wave, but set a particular result when the
wave collapses, that is, when it is measured or reacts with some
object. In other words, Sauron could roll any number he wanted on the
dice without cheating - he could, to some extent, simply select it.
The idea I want to express is a bit difficult. I want to say that
such beings can influence events without exerting any kind of force.
When something can happen, according to chance, one way or another,
they can try to select an outcome. But this power doesn't allow them
to cause anything which wouldn't happen by itself - they cannot cause
anything which wouldn't happen naturally - although, of course, they
are a great many thing which could happen naturally, but never do,
since they are so unprobable.
The most interesting thing in such a case would be that the cause of
such an event would be entirely natural, since it would be only the
more or less probable outcome of the forces operating independently
of the Maiar/Valar. At the same time it would be caused by the Valar.
Therefore, the event would have two independent causes, natural and
supernatural. So the question whether the wind at Pelennor was
natural or sent by Valar would have as the answer - both.
I will not say that this is the only power of the Valar over the
material world, but it is the one most often seen in the LoTR. Here
belong such words of Gandalf, as "Chance, as you call it" etc. It
explains also the limitations of their power. For example as Gandalf
states on Caradhras, he cannot go against the nature of the things,
he must have something to work on.
"`If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a
path for you,' said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and
he alone of the Company remained still light of heart. `If Elves
could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,'
answered Gandalf. `But I must have something to work on. I cannot
burn snow.'"
The magic of the Elves seems to be mostly similar, if sometimes
instinctive and not fully conscious.
For the example the incident with the rope in the Two Towers: "He
looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.
To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell
over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.
Frodo laughed. `Who tied the rope? ' he said. .... 'Then I'm
afraid it must have been the knot,' said Frodo. Sam shook his
head and did not answer. He was passing the rope through his fingers
thoughtfully. `Have it your own way, Mr. Frodo,' he said at last, `but
I think the rope came off itself when I called.' He coiled it up and
stowed it lovingly in his pack."
--
Stanislaus Bocian
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